Out of contention mindset Topic

jvford
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My interpretation was that "adding a player or 2" meant giving up prospects in a trade and/or signing Type As.

If it means adding Type Bs and/or acquiring players from Rule V/WW, then I would go with option #1.
10/9/2009 1:02 PM
jceffali
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#1 is preferred if you've got even a remote shot. I've gone 15-5 and 5-15 in so many 20 game stretches in this league that I have no idea why guys call it quits who are 8 games back after all-star break. If you're too far gone (or its too late) for #1, then you go to #2. When I've gone to #2 I've done things like giving more playing time to September call ups, bringing up a AAAA type to fill a hole instead of a waiver wire pickup, rest my stars at 99% rather than letting them fall to 95 or lower like usual, and I try to trade contracts for prospects. When I trade contracts for prospects I fill the ML hole with a decent player though.

#3 is never be acceptable. Tanking ruins leagues, and I'd never do it because I don't want to screw up my overall record. Besides, I'd be embarassed to win less than 60 games! In my mind, if you've got a "tanking" year on your record, you're tainted as an owner. I don't care if you won the World Series three years later, if you won 44 games in a season, I don't want you in my league.
10/9/2009 1:16 PM
jimmystick
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"3. Tank. You're not making the playoffs this season or next. Stockpile some draft picks and IFA. Make your run in a few seasons. If you ain't first, you're last."

I have a problem with this definition of "tank." To me, "tanking" means you lose on purpose with the intention of getting a very high draft choice. Stockpiling draft picks and IFAs and intending to make a run in a few seasons isn't tanking.

Examples of tanking: Keeping known good ML player in AAA to keep their salary low or prevent arb clock from starting. Signing or promoting known career minor leaguers that you know will lose games. Purposely playing 0(0) pitchers. Purposely playing guys out of position causing high errors.

That said, if I'm in that situation I choose option 3: REBUILD. I'm not ashamed of it either. I feel as long as an owner doesn't purposely do things that he knows in full knowledge will contribute to losses he's not cheating. Tanking is cheating. Stockpiling draft choices and signing IFAs is not cheating.
10/9/2009 2:33 PM
jtrinsey
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I would say I'm in between #1 and #2. I wouldn't sign a Type A or deal a valuable prospect, but if there are worthwhile Type B's I would rather spend my existing cap on them rather than transfer it into prospects.

In Happy Jack last year I took over a 70-win team. I traded away a couple decent vets with bigger contracts and signed the best Type B's I could and filled in with AAAA players. Won 75 games but was decidedly out of competition. I'm still a season or two away from my best MiL guys coming up, so this season I just picked up three more reasonably-priced Type B guys that were slight upgrades, promoted one good prospect and picked up a bench guy in the Rule 5. I'm a little over .500 and might sneak into the playoffs this year if the division leader stumbles down the stretch.

I did a similar thing in No Quitters while I was still rebuilding and managed to luck my way into the playoffs at 81-81, which was pretty cool even though I got smoked in the first round.

I'm not sure I have the trading acumen to be making deadline deals without screwing myself over, unless I was unloading a guy I didn't intend to resign. So I tend to try to make the best team I can at the beginning of the season and let things go as they will.
10/9/2009 2:47 PM
iain
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 10/08/2009
Sometimes you look at your team and say "If we finish .500, we'll be lucky." There's just not much you can do to fix it immediately(low draft picks, high payroll, aging vets, etc., etc). I think there are three things to do.

1. Add a player or two, hope to get a couple of career years, pray for a "down" year by a couple of teams and try to steal a WC. Never know what might happen in the playoffs.

2. Let it play out. Fill your roster holes with AAAA players that you've had in AAA for several seasons. Attempt to trade the overpriced vets or let the contracts expire. Play well enough to get 70-80 wins.

3. Tank. You're not making the playoffs this season or next. Stockpile some draft picks and IFA. Make your run in a few seasons. If you ain't first, you're last.



What do you do? Or is there another option?

I've never had that thought at the outset of a season.

Of course, I've been proven wrong several times, but it means that I always try to make decisions that will benefit my team in the short-to-medium term each off-season.

I'm not afraid to drop big coin on a difference maker, if one is available, regardless of how my team finished the previous season. That said, I'll never sign a big FA who will "block" someone in 1-2 seasons, because that's stupid.

Looking at it again, I guess that makes me a "1", based on how I go about it, but my thought process isn't the same.
10/9/2009 3:01 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By jimmystick on 10/09/2009"3. Tank. You're not making the playoffs this season or next. Stockpile some draft picks and IFA. Make your run in a few seasons. If you ain't first, you're last."

I have a problem with this definition of "tank." To me, "tanking" means you lose on purpose with the intention of getting a very high draft choice. Stockpiling draft picks and IFAs and intending to make a run in a few seasons isn't tanking.

Examples of tanking: Keeping known good ML player in AAA to keep their salary low or prevent arb clock from starting. Signing or promoting known career minor leaguers that you know will lose games. Purposely playing 0(0) pitchers. Purposely playing guys out of position causing high errors.

That said, if I'm in that situation I choose option 3: REBUILD. I'm not ashamed of it either. I feel as long as an owner doesn't purposely do things that he knows in full knowledge will contribute to losses he's not cheating. Tanking is cheating. Stockpiling draft choices and signing IFAs is not cheating


I don't intend to turn this into a "Tanking is the devil!!!" thread as we have plenty of those but I'm not surprised you object to my definition. Your record appears to the be tanking prototype.

SpahnTB Angry Dragons8$81.3M74-88 (.457)2-
SpahnTB Angry Dragons9$31.6M45-117 (.278)4-
SpahnTB Angry Dragons10$20.2M66-96 (.407)3-
SpahnTB Angry Dragons11$21.6M72-90 (.444)3-
SpahnTB Angry Dragons12$25.6M84-78 (.519)2-
SpahnTB Angry Dragons13$32.7M84-78 (.519)1-




Take a team with a mid-range payroll. Cut all the contracts. Reduce payroll. Jack up prospect money. Sign some IFA. Start competing with a low payroll 3-4 seasons later. You'll still be very active with IFA for several seasons until your players get to arb. It works. It looks like it's working for you. Not many worlds will put up with it.
10/9/2009 3:06 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By iain on 10/09/2009
I've never had that thought at the outset of a season.



Really? You didn't look at this pile of sludge once and say "We'll be lucky to finish .500"? Not once?

CooperstownVC Canucks2$54.0M78-84 (.481)3-
CooperstownVC Canucks3$59.6M69-93 (.426)3-
CooperstownVC Canucks4$58.4M89-73 (.549)1-
CooperstownVC Canucks5$64.8M82-80 (.506)2-
CooperstownVC Canucks6$79.4M72-90 (.444)1-
CooperstownVC Canucks7$86.9M75-87 (.463)1-
CooperstownVC Canucks8$89.4M85-77 (.525)1-
CooperstownVC Canucks9$84.9M80-82 (.494)2-
10/9/2009 3:12 PM
98greenc5
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Quote: Originally Posted By iain on 10/09/2009 That said, I'll never sign a big FA who will "block" someone in 1-2 seasons, because that's stupid
other than catchers and 1B (NL)/DH (AL), I don't think the HBD setup causes "block" situations

players can always step down the defensive ladder a rung or two if they a "blocked" at their best position ... and pitchers can have any role

HBD isn't like real life where a player's ego dictates the positon he "should" play or the role on the pitching staff he "should" have
10/9/2009 3:12 PM
dmurphy104
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What Jimmystick did isnt tanking, this is tanking...

WorldFranchiseSeasonPlayerBRPayrollBig LeagueBRRecordDivBRStdWSBRWinner
BIG LEAGUETAC Bee Ball1$23.1M44-118 (.272)4-
BIG LEAGUETAC Bee Ball2$28.9M39-123 (.241)4-
BIG LEAGUETAC Bee Ball3$18.8M51-111 (.315)4-
BIG LEAGUETAC Bee Ball4$16.8M54-108 (.333)4-
BIG LEAGUETAC Bee Ball5-67-65 (.508)--
Duff BeerSF Oogle Birds1$25.2M55-107 (.340)3-
Wailing OnionsSF Slingers1$34.6M53-109 (.327)3-
Wailing OnionsSF Slingers2$21.4M37-125 (.228)4-
Wailing OnionsSF Slingers3$16.8M52-110 (.321)4-
Wailing OnionsSF Slingers4$16.1M62-100 (.383)3-
Wailing OnionsSF Slingers5$27.0M79-83 (.488)3-
Wailing OnionsSF Oogle Birds6$22.5M92-70 (.568)2-
Wailing OnionsSF Oogle Birds7-102-60 (.630)2-
WrigleyvilleSF Wee Wee Kickapoos1$26.4M36-126 (.222)4-
WrigleyvilleSF Wee Wee Kickapoos2$19.1M29-133 (.179)4-
WrigleyvilleSF Wee Wee Kickapoos3$23.8M83-79 (.512)3-
WrigleyvilleSF Kickapoos4$40.6M105-57 (.648)1-
WrigleyvilleSF Kickapoos5$49.5M115-47 (.710)1X
WrigleyvilleSF Kickapoos6$70.1M119-43 (.735)1X
WrigleyvilleSF Kickapoos7$78.7M126-36 (.778)1-
WrigleyvilleSF Kickapoos8-64-22 (.744)--
10/9/2009 3:26 PM
tecwrg
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And he's the commish of one of those worlds (for sure), and possibly also one of the others.
10/9/2009 3:27 PM
MikeT23
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I'd disagree. If you want to cut payroll, have at it. If you cut payroll so deep that you can't win 1/3 of your games, you went too far. I honestly believe that winning games at the BL level is not your concern if you can't win 33% of your games. Call it what you will.
10/9/2009 3:34 PM
dmurphy104
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I got in one of those worlds, and noticed that after he commented on the chat questioning my two high priced free agent signings, and wondering whether I would stay in the league long-term. Needless to say, I wondered how signing players to large contracts and having to suck it up the last couple of seasons was any worse than his tanking.
10/9/2009 3:34 PM
soxfan121
Posts: 82 (0)
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61
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In a game where finishing 2nd is penalized (monetarily) and 3rd and 4th are rewarded...apart from not being a d*ckhead and tanking, why would anyone shoot for 2nd? I cheated mitch out of his 3rd place $1 credit last season in BR and I never had to adjust my lineup to do it. 81-81 was worth a $1, 82-80 got nothing. Where's the incentive in that?
10/9/2009 3:36 PM
tecwrg
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Quote: Originally Posted By dmurphy104 on 10/09/2009I got in one of those worlds, and noticed that after he commented on the chat questioning my two high priced free agent signings, and wondering whether I would stay in the league long-term. Needless to say, I wondered how signing players to large contracts and having to suck it up the last couple of seasons was any worse than his tanking
One of the main reasons (but not the only one) why I his world was because most everybody else was pretty much condoning every tanking move he made, basically congratulating him on how good his future team was going to be in a couple of seasons.

I knew that world wasn't for me.
10/9/2009 3:51 PM
MikeT23
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DAMMIT!! This is not Tank Talk.
10/9/2009 3:53 PM
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