The definition of Athleticism Topic

dalter
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Right, I think strength is separate from athleticism. In your example, I would say they are comparable athletically, but one guy is stronger.

Some of the same things that make a player explosive probably also work to make him strong, so I see how they overlap in that way. But we're talking about two guys with equal explosiveness, equal overall athleticism, etc. So yeah, I'd simply say that the one guy is stronger, not more athletic.
10/29/2009 10:10 PM
dalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By Rails on 10/29/2009
Seems to me, the best athletes in the game of BB are shooting guards and small forwards. The Kobe Bryant's and Lebron James' of the game are its best athletes.

Do any SGs and SF have extremely high ATH in HD? Few, it seems. Anyway, food for thought.

[The next definition we'll explore is the HD term DEfense and what rl attributes make a good defensive player]

rails, I've often wondered how in the world it's so common for big men to have better athleticism than guards in HD. There are a few select big men in real life (Amare Stoudemire, etc.) who might be able to rival the ath of top-notch wing players ... but very few-and-far-between.

And please, don't even get me started on HD's usage of the defense rating ... I'm likely to have a complete meltdown.
10/29/2009 10:20 PM
gopokes24
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In HD, I see athleticism as a variable multiplier. By that I mean a player's other ratings are increased (decreased) based on his athletic multiplier and the athletic multiplier he is facing. i.e. A guard with an ATH of 90 is X better than a 50 ATH player at making on-time passes, being in a proper defensive position (and getting back there when he is out of position), breaking down his defender off the dribble, creating enough space to get off a shot, getting around a box-out to get a rebound, etc.

I have no idea what "X" in the equation is (and it has to be minute otherwise 90 ATH guys would absolutely dominate 50 ATH guys) but I've always felt that's how it works. I realize some of these things go hand-in-hand with IQ. To me, a player with high ATH coupled with high IQ should be dominate assuming his other ratings are adequate. I think we see that in some cases, but I think the HD engine is lacking in recognizing what this combination means in the real college basketball world.
10/29/2009 10:36 PM
taz21
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Quote: Originally Posted By mizzou77 on 10/29/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By taz21 on 10/29/2009

Rails, one area you out, and which I believe Tarek had mentioned in the past, but I thought HD's term of athletisicm included strength, and can be included in the broad real life definition of athleticism.

I think of a kid like Aaron Grey at Pitt and whereever he's at now in the NBA. He was never a great "pure athlete" nor super quick, but he was a bull.

Additionally, I don't think any 1 particular sport would settle the debate over who's the best athlete. So many different sports require different aspects to compete at the top level. A athlete in Golf uses much different skills than a top tennis play, which both use different skills than a top football player, which is different than a 100 meter champion, etc...

At first blush, I agree that the top SG or SF in the NBA would be amongst the greatest athletes, but then thinking more, I wonder if a top LT in football wouldn't fall under the same lines, but add in more strength into the occasion. Both have to use a relative amount of speed to get from A to B, both need great flexability, great change of direction skills, hand-eye coordination, etc.... It would be great to see a "battle of the stars" type event that the athletes were there to truely win the prize, rather than get some TV time and have fun. Test 'em in straight line speed in a 200, some sort of jumping skill, some sort of lateral quickness, strength testing, endurance, hand-eye coordination, etc..

Taz, there use to be one long ago... and Hershal dominated it every time he was in it.

There wasn't any sport he couldn't do and do well.... lucky for him there wasn't a spelling bee in the event.



Oh trust me, I know, but even then, you just had a few great athletes giving various tests a try. Its even less serious today in the various re-incarnations of "superstars", but I'd love to see one where they took the top players in each field, gave them 6 months train for various events, then go all at for enough money to get the juices flowing. Obviously it wouldn't work w/ different sports in different seasons, but you get the point.
10/29/2009 10:38 PM
dalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By gopokes24 on 10/29/2009
In HD, I see athleticism as a variable multiplier. By that I mean a player's other ratings are increased (decreased) based on his athletic multiplier and the athletic multiplier he is facing. i.e. A guard with an ATH of 90 is X better than a 50 ATH player at making on-time passes, being in a proper defensive position (and getting back there when he is out of position), breaking down his defender off the dribble, creating enough space to get off a shot, getting around a box-out to get a rebound, etc.

I guess none of us know, so anyone is welcome to guess, but I would be pretty shocked if that's how it worked.
10/29/2009 11:36 PM
gopokes24
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Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 10/29/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By gopokes24 on 10/29/2009

In HD, I see athleticism as a variable multiplier. By that I mean a player's other ratings are increased (decreased) based on his athletic multiplier and the athletic multiplier he is facing. i.e. A guard with an ATH of 90 is X better than a 50 ATH player at making on-time passes, being in a proper defensive position (and getting back there when he is out of position), breaking down his defender off the dribble, creating enough space to get off a shot, getting around a box-out to get a rebound, etc.

I guess none of us know, so anyone is welcome to guess, but I would be pretty shocked if that's how it worked.



None of us know for sure, you're right. But, programming-wise, how else could athleticism work?

Just to put it out there, I have no idea how programming, as it relates to HD, works.
10/30/2009 12:02 AM
cornfused
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Quote: Originally Posted By taz21 on 10/29/2009I think of a kid like Aaron Grey at Pitt and whereever he's at now in the NBA. He was never a great "pure athlete" nor super quick, but he was a bull.
Ironic.
10/30/2009 1:37 AM
genehsu41
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I am pretty sure real life athleticism rating should incorporate size somehow. I am pretty sure that size is accounted for in whatif, but others would know better than me.

For example, a guy that is 5'6" 145lb with a 32 inch vertical and 4.7 speed in the forty yard dash is not considered particularly athletic. 5'10" 170 with 4.7 speed and 32 inch vertical? Good player in an adult recreational baskatball or flag football league. But if you're 6'6" 320lb guy with those stats, you're probably playing in the NFL.
10/30/2009 10:33 AM
cburton23
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Somewhat related, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal regarding how a kids jumping ability relates to scholorship opportunities. For each 3-4 inches higher you could jump your chances of getting a schollie went up 15% or something like that.

That being said, I have always assumed ATH included jumping ability, but that seems counter intuitive as it is the big guys with the high ATH not the little guy.
10/30/2009 10:56 AM
apollo7
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My two cents: Really athletism should be removed from the game as an attribute, and replaced with strength AND agility. If the engine still needs athletism for its computations, the score should be derived from that player's combination of speed, strength, and agility, as it would take scores in all three to be considered highly "athletic". However, a player could still be moderately athletic by having high scores in two of the three. such as fast and strong, but not agile (a good PF perhaps), or strong and agile, but not fast (a great center), and of course fast and agile, but not strong (your typical guard). Put all three together and you have your stud SF.

This would also add to the individuality of each player, and the "inferred" part of the game. A rebounder who is fast and strong would have good athletism and gets his boards by beating his man to the spot and outmuscling him. My strong and agile rebounder has the same derived athletism but he gets his boards by spinning around a defender and boxing out better. Meanwhile my weak little guard who is fast and agile gets all those long rebounds, while still having the same inferred athletism.

In the meantime, while holding my breath for this change, I will assume that the athletism score can mean EITHER strength or agility, or a combination of the two, depending on the type of player. For my 5'8" guard I will assume that his high athletism means he is very, very agile and can jump out of the gym. Meanwhile for my 6'10', 260 lb center, I will assume that his high athletism means he is very, very strong with great hands.

10/30/2009 6:23 PM
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