Quote: Originally Posted By schedule1 on 5/21/2010agreed, but 84 range is pretty good. he'll get to a decent number of balls before booting them or throwing them into the stands

The Chuck Knoblock of SS's?!?!?

These guys are all atrocious hitters, with the possible exception of Gonzalez who is merely bad. There has GOT to be a legit SS available in free agency; even if he's a terrible hitter, it won't matter much considering all 3 of these guys are sorely lacking in offense.

Of the 3, Stokes is the best alternative to a real SS. Yes, his arm is well below average, but he'll get to balls, field them cleanly and throw accurately more often than not. He will almost certainly end up with the fewest errors and (-) plays of the 3. That said, the pitching staff will hate it every time the routine ball to SS is beaten out by a speedy hitter because Stokes' arm is so weak.

Quote: Originally Posted By gregsimon on 5/21/2010
Would you play THIS guy at SS then?

Joey Stokes

No, but I'd rather him at 2B... Gonzalez at 3B... and someone who actually meets the def. recs at SS.

With the number of chances per game the SS gets in HBD (check Range Factor for a rule of thumb... 5-7, typically) a bad defender there will kill you more than in most places.

Quote: Originally Posted By soxfan121 on 5/21/2010Of the 3, Stokes is the best alternative to a real SS. Yes, his arm is well below average, but he'll get to balls, field them cleanly and throw accurately more often than not. He will almost certainly end up with the fewest errors and (-) plays of the 3. That said, the pitching staff will hate it every time the routine ball to SS is beaten out by a speedy hitter because Stokes' arm is so weak.

Think of David Eckstein, but if he didn't put his whole body into it.

I was thinking more like Alex Cora, but Eckstein is a good example.

He haunts me... the Blue Jays signed him at the height of Fire Joe Morgan's popularity... I threw up in my mouth at the time.

Quote: Originally Posted By prezuiwf on 5/21/2010These guys are all atrocious hitters, with the possible exception of Gonzalez who is merely bad. There has GOT to be a legit SS available in free agency; even if he's a terrible hitter, it won't matter much considering all 3 of these guys are sorely lacking in offense

Atrocious hitters?!?!?!

Gonzo is 69/61/79/68/51. Good offensive numbers and is only 25.

Waters is 63/42/59/61/73. Good eye and decent contact. average splits. Not a Silver Slugger, but a good hitter for a good fielding 2B. 24 years old too.

Stokes is 54/38/57/54/80. isn't that good of a bat, but not atrocious at all. He's a good utility player. Someone that can give middle infield and CF a days rest or 2.

Quote: Originally Posted By 05nomar05 on 5/21/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By prezuiwf on 5/21/2010
These guys are all atrocious hitters, with the possible exception of Gonzalez who is merely bad. There has GOT to be a legit SS available in free agency; even if he's a terrible hitter, it won't matter much considering all 3 of these guys are sorely lacking in offense.

Atrocious hitters?!?!?!

Gonzo is 69/61/79/68/51. Good offensive numbers and is only 25.

Waters is 63/42/59/61/73. Good eye and decent contact. average splits. Not a Silver Slugger, but a good hitter for a good fielding 2B. 24 years old too.

Stokes is 54/38/57/54/80. isn't that good of a bat, but not atrocious at all. He's a good utility player. Someone that can give middle infield and CF a days rest or 2.

I should rephrase and add that they're atrocious hitters with all things considered. If they were good defenders or had some other asset like great speed, they would be more useful and their hitting ratings might be considered good for their situation. But as it is, finding a crappy fielder who can hit like that is insanely easy.

Quote: Originally Posted By prezuiwf on 5/21/2010These guys are all atrocious hitters, with the possible exception of Gonzalez who is merely bad. There has GOT to be a legit SS available in free agency; even if he's a terrible hitter, it won't matter much considering all 3 of these guys are sorely lacking in offense

I disagree. Everything "matters--" these guys are going to be poor defensive SSs, but the FA with 90s in all 4 glove categories and 40s in all 5 hitting categories is, IMO, a somewhat worse player at SS than Gonzalez, since the FA is going to hit about .190/.240/.280.

Obviously, if you can get a SS with a legit, 85-average glove and a 650-OPS bat without giving up a whole lot, do it. But one option that I suspect will be cheaper is to go get a 3B with "normal" 3B glove ratings but a better bat than Gonzalez, who is only an OK bat for 3B. Then play Gonzo at SS, make sure your announcers master the phrase "past a diving Gonzalez" and live with it.

Quote: Originally Posted By prezuiwf on 5/21/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By 05nomar05 on 5/21/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By prezuiwf on 5/21/2010
These guys are all atrocious hitters, with the possible exception of Gonzalez who is merely bad. There has GOT to be a legit SS available in free agency; even if he's a terrible hitter, it won't matter much considering all 3 of these guys are sorely lacking in offense.

Atrocious hitters?!?!?!

Gonzo is 69/61/79/68/51. Good offensive numbers and is only 25.

Waters is 63/42/59/61/73. Good eye and decent contact. average splits. Not a Silver Slugger, but a good hitter for a good fielding 2B. 24 years old too.

Stokes is 54/38/57/54/80. isn't that good of a bat, but not atrocious at all. He's a good utility player. Someone that can give middle infield and CF a days rest or 2.

I should rephrase and add that they're atrocious hitters with all things considered. If they were good defenders or had some other asset like great speed, they would be more useful and their hitting ratings might be considered good for their situation. But as it is, finding a crappy fielder who can hit like that is insanely easy.

Are you new? All 3 of them are plus defenders at all positions except for SS.

2 of the 3 have average to above average hitting. Gonzo is 91/69 speed/base running and a 99 makeup. I'd say that's very good speed.

Waters is 63/62. That's a little above average. He's 28/16 in career SB/CS for ML. 16/5 this season. Decent enough speed and add in the 60+ contact and vR split and 70+ eye. That's a quality 2B right there.

When someone calls perfectly legitimate MLers "atrocious" it just screams tanker and 'tard world to me... since all those guys should be able to make a ML roster, unless you're used to seeing superteams on a regular basis.

Quote: Originally posted by gregsimon on 5/21/2010I've got two guys who are both SS. One will need to play 3B.Who do you go with at SS and why?Luis Gonzalez and Carlton Waters

Neither, but if you have to pick one, it has to be Gonzalez

Quote: Originally posted by iain on 5/21/2010When someone calls perfectly legitimate MLers "atrocious" it just screams tanker and 'tard world to me... since all those guys should be able to make a ML roster, unless you're used to seeing superteams on a regular basis.

+1

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