Zero is supposed to take three pointers within the flow of the offense.  Plus two is having him shoot three's at every opportunity (theoretically).  Why have him force a three if it isn't there?  What if the other team runs a +4 or +5?  Why would I want him jacking up threes against that defense?  So, to answer your question, no I wouldn't set him at +2, but that's just me.

Then again, when I recruit I tend to focus on Def, Ath, and Spd first, so for me to have a player with a Per rating over 80 is actually kind of rare.  I may end up with one here or there, but they tend to be few and far between for my squads (which may ultimately explain why I've choked with so many of those loaded teams.  Hmmmmmm).

+1 or +2 is redundant.  Just setting players at zero means a significantly high number of their shots are going to be 3 point attempts anyway.

As for Duncan, that MFer, I keep giving him high distro, then he doesn't take a corresponding number of shots.  His 2 point percentage is equal to his 3 point percentage, despite the PER numbers.

to the original post, I'd be willing to just set him to -1 and see how it goes...

alternatively, you could do it based on D-- 2-3 zones and press allow for higher % of 3s made, so you could go -1 vs those and -2 vs everything else.

Posted by dcy0827 on 4/22/2011 3:29:00 AM (view original):
Zero is supposed to take three pointers within the flow of the offense.  Plus two is having him shoot three's at every opportunity (theoretically).  Why have him force a three if it isn't there?  What if the other team runs a +4 or +5?  Why would I want him jacking up threes against that defense?  So, to answer your question, no I wouldn't set him at +2, but that's just me.

Then again, when I recruit I tend to focus on Def, Ath, and Spd first, so for me to have a player with a Per rating over 80 is actually kind of rare.  I may end up with one here or there, but they tend to be few and far between for my squads (which may ultimately explain why I've choked with so many of those loaded teams.  Hmmmmmm).

Because if you have player shooting .500 from 3pt land, and .500 from 2pt land, I would rather have the player take the 3 as opposed to the 2. 

For example, these 2 players:

Name	Yr.	Pos	GP	GS	MIN	FG%	FG3%	FT%	OREB	REB	AST	TO	STL	BLK	PF	PTS
K. Weddington	Sr.	SG	35	35	20.8	.529	.521	.820	0.5	2.0	2.6	1.5	0.9	0.0	1.6	18.7
R. Krawitz	Sr.	PF	35	35	23.6	.529	.000	.679	2.2	7.2	1.2	1.2	0.6	1.1	1.5	8.9
C. Barratt	Sr.	PG	35	35	23.3	.493	.493	.791	0.5	1.3	5.0	1.6	1.0	0.1	1.6	12.5

Weddington is 99 per, Barratt is 84 per. Look at the fg% and the 3pt%. For Barratt, his 2 pt fg% = 3 pt%. For Weddington, his 2pt% is slightly higher than the 3pt%. In either cases, it's more efficient for them to take most of their shots as 3pt because a 3pt fg is worth 50% more than a 2pt fg.

Teams will not run +4 or +5 simply because you have 1 player set to +2. If they do, it means the post players on your team is going to have a field day. 

Dcy, look at this game from the perspective of numbers and of a game. In a real basketball game, sure, if a player only takes 3 and never drives into the lane, he would be extremely easy to defend. Just have the assigned defender stay close on him and never back off, since the probability of this player driving to the basket is 0.

HD is a game. Possession is calculated as a function of ath/spd/lp/per/bh/ team passing v. the defender's ath/spd/def. A 3pt shooters performance will not degrade simply because 90% of his shots are 3s. There is no such thing as flow of the offense. 

tiany, that is one way to look at it ... but here is another way.

With the flow of the game (0) will allow an SG who has a 90 PER and a 10 LP shoot almost all his shots as 3 pointers if the match up is right (anything up to about +3) ... but if someone is playing a +4 or +5 in the second half, it will also allow the same SG to drive and score.  If someone is play a +5, you are not going to shoot 50% from 3 point range, but if drive on that type of D you can still score a high percentage of the time.  If you force 3's in that situation that may not be good.

I personally think the same thing is true with setting all the guys to -2 for 3 pt shooting as well ... for normal circumstances it is fine, but if someone plays you at -4 or -5, you need the guys have the opportunity to shoot from outside more.  If you force them at -2 for 3pt shots, then they will keep pounding it in even on a -5 defense.  Under normal conditions, a C with 85 LP and 2 PER is not going to shoot many 3's even with a 0 setting ... but he is not going to shoot well against a -5 by pounding either.

All the +2 and -2 do (IMHO) is put you in a bind if someone plays an extreme defense against you ... preventing your team from being able to adjust.  Most coaches are afraid of the big + or - defenses and since SIMs always start at 0, they are limited to a -2 to +2 range for defense in the second half.  I suppose if noone plays a +4 or +5 (and/or a -4 or -5) defense against you then it does not matter where you set your 3pt slider ... but if they do, then -1 to +1 would seem better to me for 3 pt shooting.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 4/22/2011 10:43:00 AM (view original):
Dcy, look at this game from the perspective of numbers and of a game. In a real basketball game, sure, if a player only takes 3 and never drives into the lane, he would be extremely easy to defend. Just have the assigned defender stay close on him and never back off, since the probability of this player driving to the basket is 0.

HD is a game. Possession is calculated as a function of ath/spd/lp/per/bh/ team passing v. the defender's ath/spd/def. A 3pt shooters performance will not degrade simply because 90% of his shots are 3s. There is no such thing as flow of the offense. 

No such thing as flow of the offense, huh?  Well then, they may want to update the Player's Guide because the section that explains a player's three point settings is posted below:

The next column is your 3-point frequency. First, a quick rundown of what each setting means.

• -2: A player will shoot a 3 only in desperation situations.
• -1: A player will shoot a 3 when left open, but will generally look to take the ball inside.
• 0: A player will shoot a 3 in the flow of the offense.
• +1: A player will actively begin searching for opportunities to shoot 3's
• +2: Think J.J. Redick. A player is constantly looking for the opportunity to shoot a 3.

And it sure as hell looks to me like a 0 setting says "in the flow of the offense".  Unless I'm misreading something.  Care to interpret for me?

It says that, but that doesn't mean the game engine actually runs it that way.  You think the program that runs the sim actually has little guys moving around?  It just spits out outcomes based on the input parameters (player ratings, distros, defensive settings, etc.) and RNG output.  They have to describe the game in ways that feel realistic, but you can't try to visualize it as an actual game with actual players without looking at it in a significantly different way than the computer generating the results is.

The engine doesn't actually have little guys moving around?  Really?  Wow, and all this time I thought........(as he rolls his eyes).

What it means is that by setting your player at 0, if the defense sags, your guy will tend to shoot more threes (based on his ratings, of course) and if he plays a plus defense your guy will probably shoot more mid range-type jumpers (again, based on his ratings).  Fellas, I've been playing the game for a few days now and I think I've got a pretty good handle on how things run.  So, yes, there is what one would describe as "flow of the offense", but it probably should be worded more like "taking what the defense is giving you".

Posted by dcy0827 on 4/22/2011 9:40:00 PM (view original):
The engine doesn't actually have little guys moving around?  Really?  Wow, and all this time I thought........(as he rolls his eyes).

What it means is that by setting your player at 0, if the defense sags, your guy will tend to shoot more threes (based on his ratings, of course) and if he plays a plus defense your guy will probably shoot more mid range-type jumpers (again, based on his ratings).  Fellas, I've been playing the game for a few days now and I think I've got a pretty good handle on how things run.  So, yes, there is what one would describe as "flow of the offense", but it probably should be worded more like "taking what the defense is giving you".

I agree with this 100% ...

And your guys will shoot better 3's (instead of only inside) if they are taking them when the defense is plying -5 ... and they will shoot better from the inside (instead of from 3 point range) if the other team is playing at +5.

At least that is what I have seen.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 4/22/2011 1:53:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dcy0827 on 4/22/2011 12:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by yanks250125 on 4/21/2011 11:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by courtmagic on 4/21/2011 9:44:00 PM (view original):
My basic formula is 0-40 (-2), 40-80 (-1), 80+ (0).  and with him only being a JR, you have another whole season left for him to improve some more. So I would set him to -1 to start getting him comfortable with shooting from the perimeter now, so he's more adept next season.

when do u set a guy to +1 or +2 then?

Personally, I never (or maybe once out of a hundred opportunities) set any of my players at anything higher than 0.  Of course, I've also managed to choke away several great chances to make deep tourney runs, so take any bit of advice from this slightly better than mediocre coach with the proverbial grain of salt.

So if you have a guard with 30 ath, 100 spd, 100 per, and 60bh, you wouldn't put him at +2? Or is this the one of the 100 opportunities you would? Any time a player with over 80 per, I put him at at least +1. 

I've yet to find an instance where I actually have to tell a high per guy that he needs to start chucking.  I find that guys that have really high per already take a huge % of their shots from 3.

Posted by hughesjr on 4/22/2011 6:52:00 PM (view original):
tiany, that is one way to look at it ... but here is another way.

With the flow of the game (0) will allow an SG who has a 90 PER and a 10 LP shoot almost all his shots as 3 pointers if the match up is right (anything up to about +3) ... but if someone is playing a +4 or +5 in the second half, it will also allow the same SG to drive and score.  If someone is play a +5, you are not going to shoot 50% from 3 point range, but if drive on that type of D you can still score a high percentage of the time.  If you force 3's in that situation that may not be good.

I personally think the same thing is true with setting all the guys to -2 for 3 pt shooting as well ... for normal circumstances it is fine, but if someone plays you at -4 or -5, you need the guys have the opportunity to shoot from outside more.  If you force them at -2 for 3pt shots, then they will keep pounding it in even on a -5 defense.  Under normal conditions, a C with 85 LP and 2 PER is not going to shoot many 3's even with a 0 setting ... but he is not going to shoot well against a -5 by pounding either.

All the +2 and -2 do (IMHO) is put you in a bind if someone plays an extreme defense against you ... preventing your team from being able to adjust.  Most coaches are afraid of the big + or - defenses and since SIMs always start at 0, they are limited to a -2 to +2 range for defense in the second half.  I suppose if noone plays a +4 or +5 (and/or a -4 or -5) defense against you then it does not matter where you set your 3pt slider ... but if they do, then -1 to +1 would seem better to me for 3 pt shooting.

You can't set + or - defense against a single player, only against an entire lineup. This is why it's best to have a balanced offense with 3 pt shooters and inside scorers, so if any time an opponent goes +5 or -5, either your big or your backcourt punishes them.

If what you are saying is true, then why not just set everyone to 0 distro as well, since in the flow of the game, it makes the most sense to have the engine to decide who's open and who's not, and have that person take the shot, as opposed to piling on 30 distro to your 100ath/spd/per/bh SG.

Posted by dcy0827 on 4/22/2011 9:40:00 PM (view original):
The engine doesn't actually have little guys moving around?  Really?  Wow, and all this time I thought........(as he rolls his eyes).

What it means is that by setting your player at 0, if the defense sags, your guy will tend to shoot more threes (based on his ratings, of course) and if he plays a plus defense your guy will probably shoot more mid range-type jumpers (again, based on his ratings).  Fellas, I've been playing the game for a few days now and I think I've got a pretty good handle on how things run.  So, yes, there is what one would describe as "flow of the offense", but it probably should be worded more like "taking what the defense is giving you".

Oh, I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that if you used the +/- 3 settings there was no adjustment for +/- defenses.  Oh wait...  There is!  +2/+1/0/-1/-2 has absolutely nothing to do with "the flow of the game" and is really just a continuum for proportion of 3s and 2s taken.  If you try to make it into anything more than that you're assigning more complexity to the engine than actually exists.

Posted by dahsdebater on 4/23/2011 1:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dcy0827 on 4/22/2011 9:40:00 PM (view original):
The engine doesn't actually have little guys moving around?  Really?  Wow, and all this time I thought........(as he rolls his eyes).

What it means is that by setting your player at 0, if the defense sags, your guy will tend to shoot more threes (based on his ratings, of course) and if he plays a plus defense your guy will probably shoot more mid range-type jumpers (again, based on his ratings).  Fellas, I've been playing the game for a few days now and I think I've got a pretty good handle on how things run.  So, yes, there is what one would describe as "flow of the offense", but it probably should be worded more like "taking what the defense is giving you".

Oh, I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that if you used the +/- 3 settings there was no adjustment for +/- defenses.  Oh wait...  There is!  +2/+1/0/-1/-2 has absolutely nothing to do with "the flow of the game" and is really just a continuum for proportion of 3s and 2s taken.  If you try to make it into anything more than that you're assigning more complexity to the engine than actually exists.

If you have a SG set at 0 for 3 point shooting (who has 80 PER and less than 10 for LP), and if the team is playing a +4 defense, he will shoot less 3 point shoots than if the team is playing a -4 defense.  That is by definition "taking what the defense" is giving him.

Surely you do not think that if you set your SG to +2 for 3 pointers and a team plays a +5 defense that he will shoot 3's as well against that as he would if the team was playing -5 defense ... do you?

Posted by tianyi7886 on 4/23/2011 1:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 4/22/2011 6:52:00 PM (view original):
tiany, that is one way to look at it ... but here is another way.

With the flow of the game (0) will allow an SG who has a 90 PER and a 10 LP shoot almost all his shots as 3 pointers if the match up is right (anything up to about +3) ... but if someone is playing a +4 or +5 in the second half, it will also allow the same SG to drive and score.  If someone is play a +5, you are not going to shoot 50% from 3 point range, but if drive on that type of D you can still score a high percentage of the time.  If you force 3's in that situation that may not be good.

I personally think the same thing is true with setting all the guys to -2 for 3 pt shooting as well ... for normal circumstances it is fine, but if someone plays you at -4 or -5, you need the guys have the opportunity to shoot from outside more.  If you force them at -2 for 3pt shots, then they will keep pounding it in even on a -5 defense.  Under normal conditions, a C with 85 LP and 2 PER is not going to shoot many 3's even with a 0 setting ... but he is not going to shoot well against a -5 by pounding either.

All the +2 and -2 do (IMHO) is put you in a bind if someone plays an extreme defense against you ... preventing your team from being able to adjust.  Most coaches are afraid of the big + or - defenses and since SIMs always start at 0, they are limited to a -2 to +2 range for defense in the second half.  I suppose if noone plays a +4 or +5 (and/or a -4 or -5) defense against you then it does not matter where you set your 3pt slider ... but if they do, then -1 to +1 would seem better to me for 3 pt shooting.

You can't set + or - defense against a single player, only against an entire lineup. This is why it's best to have a balanced offense with 3 pt shooters and inside scorers, so if any time an opponent goes +5 or -5, either your big or your backcourt punishes them.

If what you are saying is true, then why not just set everyone to 0 distro as well, since in the flow of the game, it makes the most sense to have the engine to decide who's open and who's not, and have that person take the shot, as opposed to piling on 30 distro to your 100ath/spd/per/bh SG.

It is important to have balance in your scoring, yes.  That will keep people from playing +5 or -5 on defense.  But what I said about PER/LP and 0 for 3 pt shooting is ratio is also true.

Daniel Grant  and  Chad Schafer were both set at 0 last season for 3 pt shooting.  As you can see, Grant took 75% of his shots from 3 pt range while Schafer took 81% of his shots from 2 point range.  This is because Grant has a PER of 97 and an LP of 9 while Schafer has a PER of 53 and an LP of 64 ... therefore Schafer's 0 shoots many fewer 3 pointer's than Grant's 0.  But, if Grant were facing a team that was playing us at +3 or higher, he could take 2 point shots in that scenario ... but if he was set at +2 for 3pt then he would continue shooting 3's at his normal clip (but he would not shoot them as well).