Newbie question--Why does this guy suck? Topic

MikeT23
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He's obviously in-season but I'm still not buying it.    The guy isn't a waste of space.    He can pitch in the BL and eat some innings.   Throwing in a future 18th man(I guess that would qualify as a "decent" prospect) to be rid of the salary isn't making your team better unless you're getting a better player.  If you're dumping salary, you're also dumping talent(in the name of "decent" prospect).    I'm not buying that as a sound strategy.

But, as a disclaimer, maybe you get a really good player in return as you said.  But that's not what nauds implied.

11/29/2011 6:23 PM
jonas1102
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Not letting this guy pitch probably helps his team, since he is fanaking terrbile and costing wins by being on the field.

11/29/2011 6:33 PM
gjello10
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Posted by nauds3000 on 11/29/2011 6:08:00 PM (view original):
Since he's in the last year of his deal just wait it out
Especially if you're just learning and have a bad team- at 74 OVR he's a borderline Type A/Type B depending on your world. If you have a bad team, you might even end up with a pretty good pick when someone else takes him off the slag heap next offseason.     
11/29/2011 6:36 PM
topoftheworl
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There has been a little hyperbole in this thread IMO. Without an injury or major drop off guys are who they have always been. Over a full season he's a 4.75 +- .5 era with 200 innings whatever that means to your team. That's a AAA player for my Portland team and the #3 starter for my Colorado Spring team. It just depends what 4.75 era means to you. It won't stay at 7, but it's not dropping to 3 either.
11/29/2011 6:39 PM
deanod
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Posted by topoftheworl on 11/29/2011 6:39:00 PM (view original):
There has been a little hyperbole in this thread IMO. Without an injury or major drop off guys are who they have always been. Over a full season he's a 4.75 +- .5 era with 200 innings whatever that means to your team. That's a AAA player for my Portland team and the #3 starter for my Colorado Spring team. It just depends what 4.75 era means to you. It won't stay at 7, but it's not dropping to 3 either.
and your colorado springs team just lost 110 games, so i think that sorta hints at what 4.75 ERA should mean to you.
11/29/2011 6:47 PM
jonas1102
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He's a number 3 starter on a team that is tanking for the 1st pick.
11/29/2011 6:49 PM
MikeT23
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What he said.

11/29/2011 6:49 PM
topoftheworl
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Posted by deanod on 11/29/2011 6:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topoftheworl on 11/29/2011 6:39:00 PM (view original):
There has been a little hyperbole in this thread IMO. Without an injury or major drop off guys are who they have always been. Over a full season he's a 4.75 +- .5 era with 200 innings whatever that means to your team. That's a AAA player for my Portland team and the #3 starter for my Colorado Spring team. It just depends what 4.75 era means to you. It won't stay at 7, but it's not dropping to 3 either.
and your colorado springs team just lost 110 games, so i think that sorta hints at what 4.75 ERA should mean to you.
And my Portland team has never won less than 74 for me (in my 3rd season in HBD) and is the reigning WS champ.  They'll win at least 95 this season too.  What's your point?  If I have the horses I can win and if I don't I never claimed to be you.  That's why I complimented you on the video series.  I have figured out how to win OR clear the crap and get young.  I was intreigued wathing you talk through doing both at once.  Colorado Springs is fine.  I wasnt playing to win, but I wasn't playing to lose either.  I was playing to get young, talented, and cheap.  I think I accomplished all three.  Getting the #1 pick is a happy byproduct that I don't really even need.  I'll have 60 mil to spend in FA next season and only 2 holes to fill.  Colorado Springs will compete for its division next season.  If you want to go after me personally, go after me for Florida.  I have no idea why they suck.  I didn't think they would go to the WS this season, but I thought they'd be better break even and maybe even sneak into the playoffs.
11/29/2011 7:34 PM
gjello10
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World context also matters.  32 x 5 = 160 rotation slots.  In Greenberg, when I joined in Season 14, he would have easily been a top-100 SP in the world (really poor world-wide pitching at the time).  Today, with a number of pitching-heavy draft/IFA classes since Season 14, in Season 22 in Greenberg he's probably closer to 130.  An okay #5 or a #4 on a bad team.
11/29/2011 7:35 PM
deanod
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Posted by topoftheworl on 11/29/2011 7:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deanod on 11/29/2011 6:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topoftheworl on 11/29/2011 6:39:00 PM (view original):
There has been a little hyperbole in this thread IMO. Without an injury or major drop off guys are who they have always been. Over a full season he's a 4.75 +- .5 era with 200 innings whatever that means to your team. That's a AAA player for my Portland team and the #3 starter for my Colorado Spring team. It just depends what 4.75 era means to you. It won't stay at 7, but it's not dropping to 3 either.
and your colorado springs team just lost 110 games, so i think that sorta hints at what 4.75 ERA should mean to you.
And my Portland team has never won less than 74 for me (in my 3rd season in HBD) and is the reigning WS champ.  They'll win at least 95 this season too.  What's your point?  If I have the horses I can win and if I don't I never claimed to be you.  That's why I complimented you on the video series.  I have figured out how to win OR clear the crap and get young.  I was intreigued wathing you talk through doing both at once.  Colorado Springs is fine.  I wasnt playing to win, but I wasn't playing to lose either.  I was playing to get young, talented, and cheap.  I think I accomplished all three.  Getting the #1 pick is a happy byproduct that I don't really even need.  I'll have 60 mil to spend in FA next season and only 2 holes to fill.  Colorado Springs will compete for its division next season.  If you want to go after me personally, go after me for Florida.  I have no idea why they suck.  I didn't think they would go to the WS this season, but I thought they'd be better break even and maybe even sneak into the playoffs.
i wasn't making a personal attack, just trying to point out that a 4.75 ERA pitcher really isn't all that valuable if your aim is to contend.  point being that all players actually do have a definite value, and that it does become rather difficult to contend w/ a pitcher like that as your #3.  i think you misread my tone and inferred quite a few things that weren't meant to be implied here.  i'm an ******* sometimes but that wasn't the goal here.
11/29/2011 7:52 PM
topoftheworl
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Posted by deanod on 11/29/2011 7:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topoftheworl on 11/29/2011 7:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deanod on 11/29/2011 6:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topoftheworl on 11/29/2011 6:39:00 PM (view original):
There has been a little hyperbole in this thread IMO. Without an injury or major drop off guys are who they have always been. Over a full season he's a 4.75 +- .5 era with 200 innings whatever that means to your team. That's a AAA player for my Portland team and the #3 starter for my Colorado Spring team. It just depends what 4.75 era means to you. It won't stay at 7, but it's not dropping to 3 either.
and your colorado springs team just lost 110 games, so i think that sorta hints at what 4.75 ERA should mean to you.
And my Portland team has never won less than 74 for me (in my 3rd season in HBD) and is the reigning WS champ.  They'll win at least 95 this season too.  What's your point?  If I have the horses I can win and if I don't I never claimed to be you.  That's why I complimented you on the video series.  I have figured out how to win OR clear the crap and get young.  I was intreigued wathing you talk through doing both at once.  Colorado Springs is fine.  I wasnt playing to win, but I wasn't playing to lose either.  I was playing to get young, talented, and cheap.  I think I accomplished all three.  Getting the #1 pick is a happy byproduct that I don't really even need.  I'll have 60 mil to spend in FA next season and only 2 holes to fill.  Colorado Springs will compete for its division next season.  If you want to go after me personally, go after me for Florida.  I have no idea why they suck.  I didn't think they would go to the WS this season, but I thought they'd be better break even and maybe even sneak into the playoffs.
i wasn't making a personal attack, just trying to point out that a 4.75 ERA pitcher really isn't all that valuable if your aim is to contend.  point being that all players actually do have a definite value, and that it does become rather difficult to contend w/ a pitcher like that as your #3.  i think you misread my tone and inferred quite a few things that weren't meant to be implied here.  i'm an ******* sometimes but that wasn't the goal here.
Point taken.  I meant my comment as a statement of fact. A 4.75 ERA would have been CS's 3rd best starter.  I wasn't making a specific effort to contend so I guess you are correct
11/29/2011 7:59 PM
a_ersberg
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That guy, coupled with a good defense can win you a World Series!  Dont give up!  Just keep trotting him out there.
11/29/2011 9:01 PM
travisg
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Posted by topoftheworl on 11/29/2011 6:39:00 PM (view original):
There has been a little hyperbole in this thread IMO. Without an injury or major drop off guys are who they have always been. Over a full season he's a 4.75 +- .5 era with 200 innings whatever that means to your team. That's a AAA player for my Portland team and the #3 starter for my Colorado Spring team. It just depends what 4.75 era means to you. It won't stay at 7, but it's not dropping to 3 either.
I have to agree with you. This guy isn't very good, and he's certainly isn't worth even half what he's being paid, but his control and velocity can make him somewhat useful with a better defense behind him. Certainly, I wouldn't got trading away prospects to be rid of him.

I wouldn't disagree with deano's suggestion (moving DeRosa to the bench, Mayne to 3B and trade for a SS with 90/90/90/90 defensive ratings), but I might also consider moving Mayne to 2B and playing Izturis at 3B when he comes back from the DL. Either way, you've got to stop playing Izturis and Reagan at SS, if not 2B. They're murdering you there.
11/29/2011 10:32 PM
Cheno5
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Wow, thanks for all the great feedback guys.  No, I didn't give him that contract, it was inherited.  I wonder why he was decent for so long and then just fell apart this year.  Based on his contract and his history, I expected him to be my best pitcher.  Special thanks to deano and travisg for looking over my team and giving suggestions, I appreciate that. 

I took over a team that was historically dormant.  We're just a couple games above .500 as we near the All-Star break which in my division is good enough for first at the moment.  I care more about building a future contender than I do winning the division now just to get killed in the playoffs.  But I guess winning means enough to me that I couldn't keep this guy in the rotation. 

Again, thanks everyone for the input!
11/30/2011 1:38 AM
MikeT23
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If you can win your division, win your division.   Too many worry about building that super team in the future.   If you make the playoffs as a 3-6 seed, you need to go 14-10 to win the WS.   Halfass decent teams almost always have a 14-10 run in them.
11/30/2011 6:40 AM
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