Didn't want to post this at the time because signings hadn't begun yet, but this season in D2 Tark, I pulled down not one but TWO international players.  Expensive, ehh, so so (guess everyone's definition of expensive is relative).  Worth it?  From their potentials it certainly looks like it.  I'm in total agreement with CBG on this one, you see a stud player you like, you go after him, regardless of the mileage.  Again,  there is a risk involved, sure, but the payoff is worth it if you end up signing the guy.  And if you don't, you just take a walk-on for the season and have an extra scholarship's worth of money next year.  Taking a walk-on (or even two) is, to me anyway, well worth the risk of landing one or two top of the line players.

In fact, and I don't know if CBG remembers this (though I'm sure he does), he and I ended up battling over a Center named John Ross in season 25 in D2 Tark.  My school is in Oklahoma and CBG's is in Illinois.  John Ross was from Montana.  I ended up winning the battle for him, although it cost me upwards of $18000.  Thing is, John Ross was an absolute stud, probably the top Center prospect that a D2 team could sign that season.  In season 28, John Ross ended up winning our team's 35th game that we played that year (for those that are not up to speed, that's the National Championship game) and was BY FAR the most valuable player on my squad.  Point being, he was probably 1100 miles from me, and I'm guessing about 1400 from CBG.  Didn't stop either one of us from recognizing that this guy was a program changer and going after him, once again regardless of mileage.  For newer coaches who aren't real confident about their recruiting skills, it may end up being best to stick within 360 miles until they get a better handle on how recruiting works.  But for experienced coaches, if you're not looking EVERYWHERE for recruits, you're doing your team a huge disservice. 

rookie coaches - when coach_billyg speaks, you listen.

Posted by pjbrankin on 2/23/2012 9:40:00 PM (view original):
rookie coaches - when coach_billyg speaks, you listen.

And forget everything coaches such as the idiot "caesari" says. Who is that guy, anyways??

I definitely agree with coach_billyg, but my point for new coaches is to try to pull down a player that will cost you less before going 500 miles out. That way they have an understanding of how to do it and the prices associated with pulling a player down, so, they can be successful in the future. I could be wrong though as I'm generally very conservative in recruiting. 

there are players all the time who dropdown without anyone pulling them down.  there are some gems in that group, particularly for schools with lower prestige.  will cost less to get them to consider you at that point.  the risk that others could take an interest at the same time you jump in still exists.

Posted by fungobatboy on 2/23/2012 11:27:00 PM (view original):
there are players all the time who dropdown without anyone pulling them down.  there are some gems in that group, particularly for schools with lower prestige.  will cost less to get them to consider you at that point.  the risk that others could take an interest at the same time you jump in still exists.

the biggest problem with waiting for dropdowns, ESPECIALLY as a lower prestige program, is just that - you are a lower prestige program! that means every higher prestige program will have that player drop to them first. players drop in tiers, and they will always (forget 70 miles and closer for a second) drop to the a+ school first, then the a, then the a-, etc - with a couple cycles in between each drop. often, a pulldown for a b or c school at the start of recruiting is already a d2 prospect for the high prestige schools.

so effectively, the only players you can get this way from dropdowns is ones that nobody higher prestige wants, on the cheap! of course, stuff slips through the cracks. but in general, your choice is to pull them down really early on, when the hope is that this player did not catch another coach's eye early in recruiting, when many coaches haven't looked, and for those who have looked, the player is an expensive gamble (a pulldown). if its a good player, you may have a chance of getting him in that scenario - and most coaches especially in d2/d3 are strongly deterred from players considering anybody, no matter who, at what distance, etc... so anyway, the thing to realize is that every cycle more coaches are looking, and as he drops to higher schools, the bar is getting lower and lower, more and more people can get him cheap. almost all of your best possibly prospects will get snatched up in that progression, well before they ever drop to you. again - some slip through - but that is the risk.

so given the above, what do you do? well, my advice is to do a thorough search of your good local area early on. find out how the prospects look. a lot of times, for bigs, you might go huh, pretty good crop of bigs. nobody stands out as ridiculously good, but there are a handful of players id be quite happy with and they are about the same. THAT is the situation when you might wait for the first to drop, and to snatch them. then again, if its only 200 miles or less, for 2k - you should often just bite early. so some seasons, you might say ok, ill wait on bigs, and then u look at guards - and there is a clear pecking order. there might be only 1 guy you would be really happy with, so that is where yo uwant to jump on him ASAP and give yourself your absolute best chance.

the fundamental key observation in this game, which emy/dcy was really pushing too, although he said it a little different, is this - GREAT players can make a huge difference and are hard to come by. GOOD players are a dime a dozen and they are everywhere. well, not everyone gets the good players but enough teams do, that if you really want be competitive, you have to do whatever it takes to get that GREAT player. like emy said, risking 1-2 walkons is more than worth it. so when you see that great player, go for it! and, often, you may look early and not find one, looking local. you just have to keep looking. don't settle for a shabby prospect because your local crop sucks. the local crop is just a small microcosm. you have to expand your search, look international, look a thousand miles away. and in the end, if you still can't find someone you are objectively happy with, just wait till next season. you are better off to have a guy you are happy with 1 year later than to have a guy you aren't happy with for 4 years!

Posted by therewas47 on 2/23/2012 10:14:00 PM (view original):
I definitely agree with coach_billyg, but my point for new coaches is to try to pull down a player that will cost you less before going 500 miles out. That way they have an understanding of how to do it and the prices associated with pulling a player down, so, they can be successful in the future. I could be wrong though as I'm generally very conservative in recruiting. 

i don't disagree, that is sound advice. of course, its 360 miles, not 500! but thats not really the point. for new coaches, guys with just a few seasons under their belt, sticking within 360 for pulldowns is really not a bad idea. but don't hold back too long. by a half dozen seasons, or less, you should really be sticking your neck out there - how else will your learn? at least, once you've made the NT once or twice, you should really be pushing to milk pulldowns for all they are worth, as that is one of the best ways to get yourself to your first final 4, and hopefully, your first championship!

One more question about a pulldown.

I'm C prestige DII, and I love this prospect, he's the #79 rated SF, but he's not considering anyone right now. He's 130 miles away, but rejected my phone call. I sent him 3 scouting trips, and figure I need a lot more to get him to notice me? Somehow, he's not considering any other school despite having High potential in 8 categories, and Average potential in 3 categories.

Any tips?

Posted by mannytanner on 2/24/2012 2:26:00 PM (view original):
One more question about a pulldown.

I'm C prestige DII, and I love this prospect, he's the #79 rated SF, but he's not considering anyone right now. He's 130 miles away, but rejected my phone call. I sent him 3 scouting trips, and figure I need a lot more to get him to notice me? Somehow, he's not considering any other school despite having High potential in 8 categories, and Average potential in 3 categories.

Any tips?

He's out of your league Manny, don't waste any more money on him.  In my experience, the #79 rated SF would be very difficult for even an A+ prestige to sign, if not impossible. 

On a side note, (and I'm hoping Oldwarrior/Iguana chimes in here.  He seems to keep the best track of things like this), do certain worlds seem easier to sign high level recruits in than others?  I'm speaking from a D2 standpoint here.  What I mean is, with an A+ prestige, I've had centers in the 120-130 range willing to talk to my school in certain worlds, and with the same A+ prestige, can't get centers in the 180's or 190's to even consider me as a back-up in other worlds.  Anybody else notice anything like that or am I just losing it in my old age?

Posted by emy1013 on 2/24/2012 3:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mannytanner on 2/24/2012 2:26:00 PM (view original):
One more question about a pulldown.

I'm C prestige DII, and I love this prospect, he's the #79 rated SF, but he's not considering anyone right now. He's 130 miles away, but rejected my phone call. I sent him 3 scouting trips, and figure I need a lot more to get him to notice me? Somehow, he's not considering any other school despite having High potential in 8 categories, and Average potential in 3 categories.

Any tips?

He's out of your league Manny, don't waste any more money on him.  In my experience, the #79 rated SF would be very difficult for even an A+ prestige to sign, if not impossible. 

On a side note, (and I'm hoping Oldwarrior/Iguana chimes in here.  He seems to keep the best track of things like this), do certain worlds seem easier to sign high level recruits in than others?  I'm speaking from a D2 standpoint here.  What I mean is, with an A+ prestige, I've had centers in the 120-130 range willing to talk to my school in certain worlds, and with the same A+ prestige, can't get centers in the 180's or 190's to even consider me as a back-up in other worlds.  Anybody else notice anything like that or am I just losing it in my old age?

i think this happens emy. i am almost positive recruit generation takes into account the # of open scholarships, which could easily be affected by # of human vs sim AI coaches. what i don't know is if recruit generation also takes into account humans vs simAI directly, which could further explain the discrepancy.

Posted by mannytanner on 2/24/2012 2:26:00 PM (view original):
One more question about a pulldown.

I'm C prestige DII, and I love this prospect, he's the #79 rated SF, but he's not considering anyone right now. He's 130 miles away, but rejected my phone call. I sent him 3 scouting trips, and figure I need a lot more to get him to notice me? Somehow, he's not considering any other school despite having High potential in 8 categories, and Average potential in 3 categories.

Any tips?

when a player rejects your phone call, you CANNOT sign him ever, no matter what.

there are 3 categories of players from the standpoint of each school:
1) Player who are already available to you, who you can recruit normally. These players appear in your divisional search or in lower divisions.
2) Players who will, given time and a sufficient lack of interest, drop down to you. These players can be pulled down early to avoid the wait and/or potential interest from other schools.
3) Players who will never, ever, not in a million years, not if you give them 100 campus visits, cars, and many instances of teh 10K cash booster - never, ever consider you. They won't now and they won't over time.

Both players in 2) and 3) appear a division above you. The way to differentiate is to send 1 single phone call. If that phone call is rejected, or if there is no response to the phone call, or if the phone call response is to the effect of "what do you have to offer than blah blah blah doesn't? NOTHING!" or "SLAM" or (From the assistant) "do you believe in miracles coach? because its going to take one!" or "this player would sooner freeze to death in his underwear than come to our school " - in any of those cases - its category 3. move on, do not waste money, its literally 0.0000000000% chance you can sign that player.

on the other hand, you know its category 2 if after 1 phone call, which is accepted, and responded to, you get a response like "im going to treat you like a pole vaulter - straight up. you are a backup" or "i would consider you if my other options fall through" or (from assistant) "this kid is likely to play at a higher level. of course, if that falls through, then he would consider you". don't try to over-think the messages. they are all what your gut tells you, in terms of backup or no-way-in-hell-i-will-ever-talk-to-you!

thanks gillispie, extremely useful info.

Posted by gillispie1 on 2/24/2012 4:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 2/24/2012 3:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mannytanner on 2/24/2012 2:26:00 PM (view original):
One more question about a pulldown.

I'm C prestige DII, and I love this prospect, he's the #79 rated SF, but he's not considering anyone right now. He's 130 miles away, but rejected my phone call. I sent him 3 scouting trips, and figure I need a lot more to get him to notice me? Somehow, he's not considering any other school despite having High potential in 8 categories, and Average potential in 3 categories.

Any tips?

He's out of your league Manny, don't waste any more money on him.  In my experience, the #79 rated SF would be very difficult for even an A+ prestige to sign, if not impossible. 

On a side note, (and I'm hoping Oldwarrior/Iguana chimes in here.  He seems to keep the best track of things like this), do certain worlds seem easier to sign high level recruits in than others?  I'm speaking from a D2 standpoint here.  What I mean is, with an A+ prestige, I've had centers in the 120-130 range willing to talk to my school in certain worlds, and with the same A+ prestige, can't get centers in the 180's or 190's to even consider me as a back-up in other worlds.  Anybody else notice anything like that or am I just losing it in my old age?

i think this happens emy. i am almost positive recruit generation takes into account the # of open scholarships, which could easily be affected by # of human vs sim AI coaches. what i don't know is if recruit generation also takes into account humans vs simAI directly, which could further explain the discrepancy.

Thanks CBG, makes sense.  I knew I wasn't going senile, but I really needed confirmation to prove it to myself I guess.