I don't think WIS really punishes/cares about "table talk"...that's why they don't divulge the "punishments" in my estimation.

I personally think a few of you are way too anal about the collusion talk...it's like the Army-McCarthy hearings here sometimes...everyone's a Communist.

Posted by colonels19 on 9/27/2012 12:05:00 PM (view original):
I don't think WIS really punishes/cares about "table talk"...that's why they don't divulge the "punishments" in my estimation.

I personally think a few of you are way too anal about the collusion talk...it's like the Army-McCarthy hearings here sometimes...everyone's a Communist.

i think 90% or more of coaches would agree this kind of statement cannot be allowed. think about it - its a slippery slope - where do you draw the line? you can say this or that about a certain example, but it always goes back to, where do you draw the line? it has to be consistent and enforceable - meaning, you have to be able to determine if something crossed the line. how would you propose setting the line?

and no offense, but you are only of the only coaches who has just come out and said "i cheat, what now" (re: FSS sharing), so im pretty sure your opinion on the matter is the one far out there. i think pretty many coaches START with a line of thinking like yours - oh, it can't be that bad to check with coach X if player Y is a backup player or not, something like that. but when you really think about it - how would you make the rules, in a manner not to allow rampant cheating, where you can draw a line in the sand and consistently and clearly rule what is allowed and what is not? if you think the current system is so bad - i simply ask - what do you propose to make it better? and i dont mean for you to say "oh, you know, i wouldnt be such a communist". specifically, how would you draw the line.

I don't cheat, for one, but I think people make big deals out of things that aren't...my point is, there are ways to get away with cheating when it comes to sharing FSS information...and again, if you give everyone the same information all the time, then it's impossible to cheat...you may say it takes away from the strategy of the game, but it also erases all collusive behavior regarding FSS.

They could also give every player all 99's.  Wouldn't be any cheating then, either.

You're being ridiculous, I'm being logical.

You guys want WIS to police something that they're not going to police, or at the very best with a slap on the wrist...you're setting unrealistic expectations, and expecting the company to come through like they never have before...come to terms with it already.

Posted by colonels19 on 9/27/2012 2:14:00 PM (view original):
You guys want WIS to police something that they're not going to police, or at the very best with a slap on the wrist...you're setting unrealistic expectations, and expecting the company to come through like they never have before...come to terms with it already.

Do you realize how mind numbingly simple it would be for them to add a small scanning function to the "post" button click on CC's?  All they'd have to do is enter 10-20 keywords to flag for review, like "high-high", "fss", "wots", etc and scan the posts that are returned.  They could even up the laziness and only return the results while the world is actively recruiting, so they'd likely only have a handful of posts to scan daily.  It's so simple, yet they don't do it for some reason.  

I don't think something that simple is unrealistic to expect, and if it is, then that's just sad.

There is no way to truly stop people who will go to any length to cheat at these games.

Posted by colonels19 on 9/27/2012 2:14:00 PM (view original):
You guys want WIS to police something that they're not going to police, or at the very best with a slap on the wrist...you're setting unrealistic expectations, and expecting the company to come through like they never have before...come to terms with it already.

I don't want WIS to police it.  That's like blaming increasing crime on a lack of police.  I want us, as critical thinkers, to understand what is wrong with it and to not do it.

Posted by bistiza on 9/27/2012 2:33:00 PM (view original):
There is no way to truly stop people who will go to any length to cheat at these games.

this is true. but its also true that most coaches respect the strategy of this game, and respect their fellow coaches, and will police themselves. and thus, its important to set a reasonable expectation on coach behavior, along the lines of recruiting talk etc...

colonels - once again - if you don't like the standard, where would you draw the line? you conveniently dodge the question. probably because you realize its not an easy question. thats fine, if you just want to **** and moan, but if you can't suggest anything better - that is your right - but that should give you some insight into why the people supporting the current rule set support the current rule set :) if someone has a better idea, great, i think everyone is all ears as far as that is concerned.

Posted by isack24 on 9/27/2012 2:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by colonels19 on 9/27/2012 2:14:00 PM (view original):
You guys want WIS to police something that they're not going to police, or at the very best with a slap on the wrist...you're setting unrealistic expectations, and expecting the company to come through like they never have before...come to terms with it already.

I don't want WIS to police it.  That's like blaming increasing crime on a lack of police.  I want us, as critical thinkers, to understand what is wrong with it and to not do it.

exactly. 98% of the coaches in this game who do well, take pride in their accomplishments - its not easy. i think the large majority of coaches would struggle to feel that pride if they cheated their way there. and im just not that concerned about the guy dead-set on cheating - we all know its impossible to stop this person. but hes probably a piece of **** dumbass trying to compensate for, well, being a piece of **** dumbass (look, i can cheat and win at fake basketball! aren't you proud mommy?). money is not at stake, the intellectual elite are not attracted to cheat in HD like they are to cheating vegas or cheating a poker game, i seriously doubt he is going to win a bunch of titles or anything close, and is unlikely to make a notable impact on the community with his cheating. besides, if it makes his miserable life worth living, then let him have it, he needs it more than the rest of us.

so in short, what i am concerned about is making things fair for the 98% of people who want them to be fair.

I think the degree of cheating needs to be taken into account as well...I want this game played 100% pure like all of you guys, I just don't think Table Talk, Coach board intimidation and FSS sharing are that big of a deal...now if we're conspiring to throw games, that's another story....but having multiple teams in the same world...please..

If you get 9 other coaches and each scout 10% of the available recruits, you each save around 15k. FSS sharing and sharing of scouting info (extremely costly for internationals) provide a huge edge, bigger than conspiring to throw 2-3 games imo. 

Posted by colonels19 on 9/27/2012 4:29:00 PM (view original):
I think the degree of cheating needs to be taken into account as well...I want this game played 100% pure like all of you guys, I just don't think Table Talk, Coach board intimidation and FSS sharing are that big of a deal...now if we're conspiring to throw games, that's another story....but having multiple teams in the same world...please..

again, its all ******* and moaning without anything to back it up until you can explain where and how to draw the line in the sand. FSS sharing, if out of control, can have a huge impact on d3 and d2 - coaches often recruit only 10 or 20%, and pretty much never as much as 50%, of recruits - because they don't have the money. they'd LOVE to have the data. now, if 1 coach asked another for 1 players' FSS data, how is that different than 2, how is 2 different from 3... etc, etc, until you get to 10 coaches colluding together to each scout 1/10th and share it all? that is a HUGE advantage and nobody wants that to be allowed. are you suggesting it should be allowed?

you simply fail to grasp that this kind of random hand-waving is 100% useless to anyone and everyone. CS needs to put out a policy. this policy would ideally be more clear and concise than what it is today, but its still infinitely more clear and concise than what you are suggesting here. i challenge you to propose something concrete! i agree, the degree needs to be a factor in punishment - but levels of punishment come AFTER you draw the line. where do you draw the line, and more importantly, HOW do you draw it? how do you determine what is over the line and what is not?

i can appreciate, and definitely agree to some extent, with the sentiment that some of the fun can be taken away by being too restrictive. but that doesn't mean CS can just arbitrarily decide what is OK and what is not. nor can the coaches here, and CS gets their queue on fair play from coaches. thats why i am trying to push you to really try to say something concrete. its easy to hand wave. thats the point. fair play guidelines are NOT easy and thats really my point - fault others for their opinions only after you can state your own!!

The one thing I would like to see is a limit of only one team per world, period.  That seems to be a much bigger deal and issue than table talk on a particuliar recruit.  I actually agree that the table talk is wrong but I think having it would add to the game and speed up the learning curve big time.  Some guys might get "poached" but as long as there isn't intent to hurt another team, I don't see it as being as wrong as some are stating.  It always comes back to the real world/sim issue as in rl, even coaches that haven't recruited a state are going to hear about other studs and unique situations.  I think we are trying to make recruiting too much of a bubble that is unrealistic and again, hurts new players.
  I keep hearing about these issues while at the same time guys state, I don't have much overlap on my multiple team world with FSS and I would say "Much" is more than a single recruit so I am hopeful that before CSS cracks down on potentially enjoyable and educating pieces of the sim, they focus on the bigger cheaters.  
  What about a general rule that if the information is available for free, its fair game and if it would cost money  to learn (FSS), its off limits?  Would anyone be on board with that?