I change the practice plans every time grades come out. Thanks for all of the info on the triangle. Sounds like I can basically run it in the same way that I have been running motion and be OK.

Posted by chapelhillne on 10/27/2012 1:03:00 PM (view original):
I change the practice plans every time grades come out. Thanks for all of the info on the triangle. Sounds like I can basically run it in the same way that I have been running motion and be OK.

well, you can run any of the big 3 offenses the same way and be OK. but if you want to be more than OK, its worth noting some of the key differences. motion and triangle are my 2 best offenses, those are the 2 i made my 2 runs with. here are some of the key differences, and if only i could remember back 3 years, it would be a better (and longer list) - but those things are definitely the smaller effects.

- in triangle, you can push the distribution of your top players harder than you can in motion without starting to hit a penalty. this does NOT mean you don't want your best scorers to score in motion - just that instead if you have a star player, you might take him from 16 ppg in motion to 18 or 20 in triangle.
- in triangle, you really can get away with 2 primary scorers better than you can in motion offense. sure, you can do it in motion and be OK, but its really going to hold you back if you are trying to be one of the better programs in your world.
- the 4th scorer in motion has a pretty noteworthy value over the 4th scorer in triangle. the 5th is too, but thats really because hes basically useless in triangle and still has some marginal value in motion.
- perimeter scorers in the motion offense can be great off great spd/bh and solid per. these players will not perform as well and triangle and you can see it with your own eyes (no computer regressions needed, i never did that). triangle perimeter players still value spd/bh high but bh is definitely not as high as in motion.
- guards in motion can get away with solid pass a lot easier than triangle guards (you are supposed to be shooting to be a great team, whatever that means to you, so when i mean solid, i mean, its workable but its not great, i.e. a weakness when you play great teams)
- this one really is partialy redundant at this point, but anyway - coaches often (and often with great success) push their low scorers as low as possible. in triangle, i run 2-3x as many guys at 0, compared to motion. in motion offense its really easy to be an efficient 5-7 ppg scorer as the 4th/5th man on the starting lineup. these players in triangle could score 5-7ppg too but often it would NOT be very efficient, so they end lower, which balances out the top players being higher.

just to kind of capture this effect on disto, because so many coaches have responded to me that this is dangerous advice and you should still score a lot with your best guys in motion and all that - i just want to say 2 things. first, these are not huge effects here. if you are getting into top 10/top 5 in your world play, playing these factors right or not can easily be costing you a few positions up there. but with significantly lower teams, there are usually so many things wrong that a lot of this stuff is like, scraping the bottom of the barrel. still, at the high end, a perfectly build triangle offense team could fall from 25% to win a title to 20% playing motion, easily, and visa versa - thats very significant considering if you are a borderline top 1 team you are lucky if you have any more than 10% to win a championship in the first place. i studied these offenses with 50% and a few d2 teams much higher than that, in title % chance teams - so these effects were really making up a good chunk of my teams' lead over the field. anyway, 2) here is a sample scoring line you might have with the same team, relatively balanced starting lineup, in motion and triangle, just to get an idea how severe i am talking here, assuming you play 10 men:

triangle (ppg by leading scorers in order): 16 13 10 8  7 5 5 3 2 2 1  (72 ppg)
motion (ppg by leading scorers in order):13.5 11 9.5 8 7 6 6 4 3 2 2 (72 ppg)

point being, its small differences (this game is all about getting 50 little advantages, so in the end, you are a heavy favorite - thats why theres a successful coach neglecting to do every possible small advantage - but that doesnt mean that coach couldnt be more successful if he didnt neglect that thing or those things). anyway, if you try to run triangle and cram the same distro in, you are definitely losing a couple fg% there on overall efficiency, generally speaking. depending on where you are in the game, that could be HUGE, or not really something you notice.

What I am reading in this thread is that when running the triangle you can't discount the value of passing.  I guess that leaves me with a few questions regarding how high to value passing in the triangle.  I have a B- division 1 school.  I am not going to get the 5star 720 ranked players.  I am looking more at the high potential 2 and 3 star type of guys.  This guys can become extremely efficient and great players but they probably won't be the super players who are maxed out in like 6 categories.  How do I go about ranking the priorities in a recruit?  For a guard in the triangle I assume you want the highest you can get in each of the following categories:

ATH, SPD, DEF, PER, P, with good BH.  I can't get all of that at 99.  Where can I give a little bit?  What combos go best together?  (For example if I don't get elite speed, can I make up that deficiency by having superior ATH or P?)  

OK, thanks for the thoughts.  Appreciate the suggestions.  

Posted by jjwarden on 11/5/2012 9:49:00 PM (view original):
What I am reading in this thread is that when running the triangle you can't discount the value of passing.  I guess that leaves me with a few questions regarding how high to value passing in the triangle.  I have a B- division 1 school.  I am not going to get the 5star 720 ranked players.  I am looking more at the high potential 2 and 3 star type of guys.  This guys can become extremely efficient and great players but they probably won't be the super players who are maxed out in like 6 categories.  How do I go about ranking the priorities in a recruit?  For a guard in the triangle I assume you want the highest you can get in each of the following categories:

ATH, SPD, DEF, PER, P, with good BH.  I can't get all of that at 99.  Where can I give a little bit?  What combos go best together?  (For example if I don't get elite speed, can I make up that deficiency by having superior ATH or P?)  

OK, thanks for the thoughts.  Appreciate the suggestions.  

the answer to your question is this - it depends on the role. having players fit a certain "role" (not like role players in college, i.e. glorified benchwarmers, but your starters, best players, they all need a clear purpose). when you rank out all the guards by the average guard attributes, most of the time, the best guys arent the ones who are highest - why? because its all about getting ratings that go well together to make a player great at something you can leverage, while hes not as good in other areas, that you just dont need him to be that good in.

for example, you could have a defense oriented point guard who is really good, with high ath/spd/def/p first, and low per/modest bh would be fine. but for a guard whose main objective is being your primary scorer, that per/bh is critical. he would focus on spd/per/bh, sacrificing ath/def/pass as necessary. 

a guard with a slightly greater sum of those 6 ratings, who has an equal amount of ath/spd/def/per/bh/pass, just wouldnt be as good. and a team of guys like that just isn't an efficient use of ratings. you can have better team offense and better team defense by slanting maybe a third of your players towards having stronger offense, and the rest towards having stronger defense - both offense (through greater efficiency of those who score) and defense (through upping the average defensive quality by being able to focus on it in the majority of your players) improve, at a team level. 

so, its really about the role you need a player to serve. before recruiting, it is critical to figure out what roles would make ideal team mates for your standing team, in 2, 3, 4 seasons, and to make sure you find the best guys you can in those roles (now occasionally, particularly in d1, you can just get such a better player in a different role that you go for a less optimal team setup, but in d2/d3 that should very rarely be the case).

Thanks coach!  For the guard who is your scorer, would you value the BH higher than P?  I know this whole thread started valuing the impact of passing on turnovers in the triangle so I know it should not be totally dismissed.  If you have a 99 SPD and 99 perimeter guy for example would you rather have a 95 BH and 70p or 83 BH and 83p?  It sounds like you would go with the higher BH in the case of a scorer.  Just trying to calculate exactly what the priorities are and how to value p within them.  

The role aspect makes total sense.  Thanks for the clarification and wisdom.  

Absolutely take the BH for a scorer.  Not even close.