DII Point Guard Topic

coach_billyg
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Posted by Trentonjoe on 10/25/2012 1:44:00 PM (view original):
His LP is the teens.

I have found it really needs to be about 30 to be an effective 2 point shooter.  Am I wrong?



yes
10/25/2012 3:38 PM
coach_billyg
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Posted by milwood on 10/25/2012 12:32:00 PM (view original):
I think when you are matched up against a fast pg he will get into foul trouble very easily, especially playing man.  He'd probably be great against Simai teams.  I would, however, love to have that guy play SF against the press, but I don;t think his speed is enough to be effective against good competition.

Then again, I know little about this game and even less about the triangle

i really and truly have spent more time investigating this general issue than anything in the game - does the game really compare things like speed of your pgs, and look at their defense rating, or does it create conglomerates to use? like, defensive ability? ive tried harder to know that than any 1 thing in this whole game.

IMO, there is very little doubt now - its conglomerates. i strongly disagree a fast pg will cause major problems.

this guy looks good to me, im all for him. you skipped his reb though OP, he could be a great sf (even without it, but its a degree of greatness). hows his reb?
10/25/2012 3:40 PM
coach_billyg
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Posted by dahsdebater on 10/25/2012 2:28:00 PM (view original):
I still maintain that if they actually have enough to notice BLK factors into perimeter defense as well, but I'm not really wanting to get into that fight again...

I think that many, many coaches overrate the importance of speed on both offense and defense at the PG position.  Doesn't mean I don't think a faster guy would be better; in fact, it would be one of the highest priorities for a D2 PG, quite possibly the #1 attribute I would recruit for.  But because they have this gut feeling, largely developed I think from watching real world basketball, that a 50 speed PG will get lit up on both ends, nobody actually TRIES playing a 50 speed PG in D2, if they're willing to do it in D3.  They just say, "hey, that guy must be an SF with that speed."  There's nothing wrong with a perimeter-scoring SF.  I think that guy would be a great D2 SF.  Elite almost.  But he can be a solid PG if you need a PG.  He will turn it over much less than you anticipate I think, he won't shoot quite as well at PG but he'll be decent, and he'll play perfectly adequate (read: still above average) defense at the 1 for you.  Absolutely speed is important and valuable, but at D2 and D3 you can overcome virtually any shortcoming with very good other ratings.  I hate to play a PG who isn't a good passer, but you can get away with one who isn't particularly fast.

this (ill even agree to let the BLK thing go =)
10/25/2012 3:42 PM
coach_billyg
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Posted by bistiza on 10/25/2012 3:26:00 PM (view original):
I think too many of you are comparing this guy only to other elite players and highlighting his lower speed as a huge glaring weakness when I'm not sure that's the case.

Most DII teams I look at would probably love to have this guy play PG for them. I'm sure there are other better choices for starting PG, but I can't imagine there are too many who would develop to this level or better at DII.

i THINK the OP was saying hes starting to compete for titles. or maybe that was just make the NT. if its just make the NT, you can use your line of thinking. but if you want to win the NT, you ONLY compare yourself to the absolute best. so if he meant (and he cut out there) he wants to win the NT, i definitely recommend against the approach you advise. if you are just trying to make some NTs and get the prestige up, and you plan to not really be playing tough opponents or making final fours or anything, then you really dont need to compare to the elite teams (although you absolutely should be looking at them).
10/25/2012 3:44 PM
coach_billyg
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Posted by Trentonjoe on 10/25/2012 11:33:00 AM (view original):
I am that point where I expect to compete for a NT each season.  I don't but I expect to.   Is this guy a VERY GOOD DII point guard in the Triangle.   I don't expect him to score, I just need him to play defense, not turn the ball over, and hopefully increase the likelihood of others making shots.

NameYr.Pos.ASPDREBDEBLKLPPEBHPWESTDUFTTOT
 
ATH    (85)
SPD      49

DEF     (90)
PER     (82)
BH       (78)
PASS  (75)

In anut shell, is the 50 Speed gonna killl him?
you mention triangle, but not his defense, which is vastly more important (well, FB is pretty different than the other 3, but if its one of the big 3, defense set vastly outweighs offensive set). if you are playing press, i might not take this guy, where speed is still way up there. in m2m, where ath/def is the undisputed heavy weight champion of the world, i would definitely take him.
10/25/2012 3:46 PM
ike1024
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Posted by dahsdebater on 10/25/2012 3:25:00 PM (view original):
Trying to compare speeds is ridiculous, the engine doesn't do it so coaches should stop doing it.  IE, the engine never says "offensive player has 80 speed, defensive player has 40, so the offensive guy will run roughshod all over and around that slowpoke."  We want it to work that way, but it just doesn't.  If your all-around offense and defense are good enough it doesn't matter which attributes they come from.

No one said it did.  I'm not "comparing speeds."  I'm saying that's he going to run into 70/80 guards with offensive ability who, as a whole, with speed taken into consideration, are going to cause serious problems for the 80+/50 guard at the PG position.  It's especially true in press defense.  Probably less so in others.

10/25/2012 4:10 PM
bbunch
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I've had otherwise great DII PGs with poor speeds before - and they greatly underperformed due to the lack of speed. Try to start the guy at SG or SF if possible. 
10/25/2012 6:14 PM
Trentonjoe
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Thanks for all the help guys.

He's a 16 REB, 24 LP, C FT shooter, and we play man to man.

(10 block counselor)

I am pretty confident  he can play perimeter defense pretty well and he's probably the 4th or 5th best offensive player on my team.   

I am most concerned that he won't be able to handle the good press teams in the NT.
10/25/2012 7:50 PM
emy1013
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He's really a SF with those ratings, of that I'm sure.  Since you run a M2M, he could probably play at one of the guard spots in a pinch, but I don't know that I'd use him as a PG if I could help it.  I think he could get away with playing SG and not have too many problems, especially with his Ath/Def ratings.  He's a solid, solid player and I would absolutely LOVE to have him on one of my D2 teams, but when all is said and done, he's a SF.  And a damn good one too!
10/25/2012 10:41 PM
emy1013
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Posted by coach_billyg on 10/25/2012 3:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 10/25/2012 1:44:00 PM (view original):
His LP is the teens.

I have found it really needs to be about 30 to be an effective 2 point shooter.  Am I wrong?



yes
I would agree with this almost every time, but with this guy's attributes I think he could draw ALOT of fouls down low and make a living at the free throw line.  Incidentally, I didn't see you list his IQ anywhere.  That could and would make a big difference in my opinion of whether he could be an effective PG or not. 
10/25/2012 10:44 PM
coach_billyg
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Posted by emy1013 on 10/25/2012 10:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyg on 10/25/2012 3:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 10/25/2012 1:44:00 PM (view original):
His LP is the teens.

I have found it really needs to be about 30 to be an effective 2 point shooter.  Am I wrong?



yes
I would agree with this almost every time, but with this guy's attributes I think he could draw ALOT of fouls down low and make a living at the free throw line.  Incidentally, I didn't see you list his IQ anywhere.  That could and would make a big difference in my opinion of whether he could be an effective PG or not. 
im assuming hes a fr and those ratings are where he will get... and thus, his iq starting out doesnt matter, but that it will end around an A. but maybe i misunderstood the question, is this guy a juco or something?

i agree, hes preferred at sf. but the point i am making really is that a guy without the per to jack up 3s, with strong ath/spd and no lp, can still easily top 50% fg wise, which IMO, makes him a quite effective 2 point shooter. sure, lp is always better, especially for drawing fouls. but you can definitely be an effective scorer at the 3 with 1 lp, even without shooting 3s.


10/26/2012 12:09 AM
coach_billyg
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Posted by bbunch on 10/25/2012 6:14:00 PM (view original):
I've had otherwise great DII PGs with poor speeds before - and they greatly underperformed due to the lack of speed. Try to start the guy at SG or SF if possible. 
speed is still the #1 stat for point guards in general, but this guys ratings are so good elsewhere, and with ath/def becoming so fricken dominant, i just think you've got to jump on him. pre-new engine, id say pass. in the current engine though, i have little doubt this guy can overcome his speed, even at the 1. hes not a best in the nation type guy (he could be at the maybe with a bit more reb), but still, very deserving of a starting spot on a high caliber team.

playing a guard like this at the 1 or 2 basically makes very little to no difference though... its that jump to the 3 that matters so much. in almost any situation, any team, except when the other team has man defenders at the 1/2 who are a lot different in defensive strength - you can swap the 1/2 with minimal impact. just like the 4/5. sure, there are differences, but fundamentally playing this guy at the 1 or 2 is not going to change much generally speaking (now if hes scoring 25ppg and the opposing 1 is defensive player of the year, yeah, but thats really based on the other team and is an extreme case - in general, over the course of a season, its a fairly small impact. the 1/2 i would even call closer than the 4/5)
10/26/2012 12:11 AM
coach_billyg
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Posted by ike1024 on 10/25/2012 4:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 10/25/2012 3:25:00 PM (view original):
Trying to compare speeds is ridiculous, the engine doesn't do it so coaches should stop doing it.  IE, the engine never says "offensive player has 80 speed, defensive player has 40, so the offensive guy will run roughshod all over and around that slowpoke."  We want it to work that way, but it just doesn't.  If your all-around offense and defense are good enough it doesn't matter which attributes they come from.

No one said it did.  I'm not "comparing speeds."  I'm saying that's he going to run into 70/80 guards with offensive ability who, as a whole, with speed taken into consideration, are going to cause serious problems for the 80+/50 guard at the PG position.  It's especially true in press defense.  Probably less so in others.

i would agree with you if the OP was playing press, that this guy is a defensive liability. but with the game as it stands, in man defense, ath/def is so HUGE on defense, his speed really is not going to be an issue. for a guard with that ath/def, spd is by far a much bigger consideration on the offensive side of the ball than the defensive side - and that is true for this player, for sure. he really is better off offensively at the because of his speed. but defensively, you take a 85 ath 90 def guy when you can get him, hes going to be beastly. even with a ****** 50 speed hes still REALLY good on defense at the 1 or 2. remember, the game functions based on conglomerate based abilities, not on comparisons of individual ratings. its the offense - scoring, and ability to control the ball - that make me question if this guy is a good or great d2 pg. not the defense. defense, he solid as hell.
10/26/2012 12:17 AM
emy1013
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Posted by coach_billyg on 10/26/2012 12:09:00 AM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 10/25/2012 10:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyg on 10/25/2012 3:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 10/25/2012 1:44:00 PM (view original):
His LP is the teens.

I have found it really needs to be about 30 to be an effective 2 point shooter.  Am I wrong?



yes
I would agree with this almost every time, but with this guy's attributes I think he could draw ALOT of fouls down low and make a living at the free throw line.  Incidentally, I didn't see you list his IQ anywhere.  That could and would make a big difference in my opinion of whether he could be an effective PG or not. 
im assuming hes a fr and those ratings are where he will get... and thus, his iq starting out doesnt matter, but that it will end around an A. but maybe i misunderstood the question, is this guy a juco or something?

i agree, hes preferred at sf. but the point i am making really is that a guy without the per to jack up 3s, with strong ath/spd and no lp, can still easily top 50% fg wise, which IMO, makes him a quite effective 2 point shooter. sure, lp is always better, especially for drawing fouls. but you can definitely be an effective scorer at the 3 with 1 lp, even without shooting 3s.


I may have misunderstood also, I thought that what his ratings were right now.  Oops, I just read the question/answer again and I had it backwards the first time.  I thought you were saying that it DID need to be around 30, when in fact, you were saying it didn't.  That being the case, I agree completely that it doesn't need to be at a 30 to be effective.  My mistake, read it wrong the first time.  We're in agreement here.
10/26/2012 12:27 AM
gvsujulius
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I would play him at SF, this is my SF for D2 Tampa. He seems to be doing pretty good with similar ATH/SPD http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=0&pid=2156902
10/26/2012 2:12 AM
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