As someone who used to be in the Top 100 for most LIVE games played, I agree with contrarian that the point elbirdo accurately makes is not necessarily the one I was addressing, although his answer to the original question is definitely correct and my assertion that there is "no difference" is incorrect.

and Happy New Year!

Posted by elbirdo on 12/2/2015 12:17:00 AM (view original):
OK - here goes - I figured this out a long time ago and I just went back and verified it.   One of the cool things about playing live is that you can see the running pitch count and fatigue values for your pitcher after every batter.   Pick you favorite pitcher (in this example I used 2000 Martinez).  I started him and watched his pitch count and fatigue.  After 30 pitches he was still at 98%.  After 40 - 96%.  After 70 - 91%.  He made it to 105 pitches and was still above 80%.  Then his fatigue increases more rapidly until getting to 0% after 160 pitches.   

Now - play the same game again but start someone else.  Let him face a batter, then bring Martinez in as a reliever.  The curve is much steeper.  40 pitches = 92%.  70 pitches = 64%.  90 pitches = 11%.  Hits 0% at about 95 pitches.  That's a fatigue rate almost double of what he had as a starter.

Thought about keeping this to myself, but what the heck....Merry Christmas.

This is clearly saying and what I get most out of this is that (if using SP's and assuming the two pitchers are of the same quality) when tandems are used, it is better to have the first pitcher in a tandem  throw more pitches than the second. a 70/40 split will perform better than a 40/70 split. In the latter you'll have to deal with a very vulnerable pitcher at 64%. If this remains the case for tandems, this is a program error and should be addressed, because the actions of the two starting pitchers are independent events and the results should be theoretically identical. . . 

Posted by crimsonblue on 12/2/2015 9:04:00 AM (view original):

Posted by elbirdo on 12/2/2015 12:17:00 AM (view original):
OK - here goes - I figured this out a long time ago and I just went back and verified it.   One of the cool things about playing live is that you can see the running pitch count and fatigue values for your pitcher after every batter.   Pick you favorite pitcher (in this example I used 2000 Martinez).  I started him and watched his pitch count and fatigue.  After 30 pitches he was still at 98%.  After 40 - 96%.  After 70 - 91%.  He made it to 105 pitches and was still above 80%.  Then his fatigue increases more rapidly until getting to 0% after 160 pitches.   

Now - play the same game again but start someone else.  Let him face a batter, then bring Martinez in as a reliever.  The curve is much steeper.  40 pitches = 92%.  70 pitches = 64%.  90 pitches = 11%.  Hits 0% at about 95 pitches.  That's a fatigue rate almost double of what he had as a starter.

Thought about keeping this to myself, but what the heck....Merry Christmas.

This is clearly saying and what I get most out of this is that (if using SP's and assuming the two pitchers are of the same quality) when tandems are used, it is better to have the first pitcher in a tandem  throw more pitches than the second. a 70/40 split will perform better than a 40/70 split. In the latter you'll have to deal with a very vulnerable pitcher at 64%. If this remains the case for tandems, this is a program error and should be addressed, because the actions of the two starting pitchers are independent events and the results should be theoretically identical. . . 

I cannot confirm that it applies to tandems.  I would think not (hope not, anyway).   I could not figure out how to use tandems in live play. 

I hope not too but the second pitcher in a tandem is in essence a relief role. Even so, if it doesn't apply to tandems THEN tandems would have a slight advantage over a standard relief role(especially for Long A and B settings) for SP's. Which would still present an inconsistency here. Good observations elbirdo, and thanks for sharing this. 

Elbirdo's post..." this entire post drips with NPD "

Unkind and arrogant comment. Personally I find contrarian's posts to be intelligent and his use of language precise. I appreciate that. Language matters.

Crimsonblue's observation about tandems is very helpful...

Posted by winnetka1 on 12/2/2015 1:30:00 PM (view original):
" this entire post drips with NPD "

Unkind and arrogant comment. Personally I find contrarian's posts to be intelligent and his use of language precise. I appreciate that. Language matters.

Hear hear

I guess we're supposed to accept elbirdo's pearls of wisdom with gratitude, and a bit of genuflecting.  We're not supposed to correct and expand on his posts, even if we do so politely and in the interest of gaining knowledge.

He puts more work into this hobby than most of us, and God bless him he's had more success than most of us, too.  Does that give him the right to be a d-bag, though?  Maybe he was having a bad day when he posted the above, but his general attitude in his posts has always been, "I know a secret, and if you're nice to me I might tell you."  Screw that.  One more guy on my blocked list.

I am getting from some people's posts that elbirdo has been - uncharacteristically - rude to contrarian23, someone who is as esteemed by nearly all of us as anyone here on the site. 

But being an old guy I have no idea what NPD means - so I don't actually understand how insulting or not the post was. 

But please let's show each other respect and courtesy here. Contrarian23's use of precise language is well taken, since fatigue is a very specific issue - about which contrarian23 is arguably the most advanced expert on the site having posted very involved analyses of the subject much to all our benefit. Elbirdo is certainly the leading expert here on pitching issues, but such a debate should be conducted as befits two great thinkers on a question of importance to both, without name-calling or the use of abbreviations that I don't understand as if this were a Twitter account. 

For what it's worth, I'm not particularly offended by anything elbirdo wrote. No harm no foul here. Let's move on.

Though I appreciate and am humbled by those who spoke up on my behalf.

I learned sometthing in this thread.....if I can get live to work I really want to chart fatigue now.

As always, contrarian23 acts like a prince (not in the Machiavelli sense but in the good metaphorical sense) and takes the moral high ground. Let's all do that. 

trentonjoe, we look forward to your reports on fatigue.