Posted by jcfreder on 3/3/2017 10:35:00 AM (view original):
D3 gets less money than D1, even though that money is worth less "effort." Shouldn't AP be the same thing? And if not, shouldn't;t AP's power be reduced?

I think the logic behind D3 schools getting less money was to limit the scope of their scouting and their ability to recruit at distance.

If you limit D3 resources any more it'll make scouting/recruiting very quick with a very narrow band of options.... which may not be a bad thing.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2017 10:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 3/3/2017 9:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jcfreder on 3/3/2017 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Also, is it true that D2 and D3 get the same amount of AP per opening as D1? If so, why? Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school? Seems unrealistic that a D3 school can pile up AP, or that a recruit would even care about the 1400th phone call.

+2

-9 They already have more value than D3. So give D3 less?

Do we all agree that D1 and D3 should never battle for a recruit? Someone has reached too high or someone has dipped too low. Right?

Top 250 are exclusive D1. These kids think someone is going to pay them to play when they're done with college. Not all of them are right but some can play D-League, Euro ball, etc, etc.

Top 125 at each position are restricted to D1/D2. These think they can play big boy CBB or at least sit on the bench for someone who plays on TV Saturday afternoon. But they're not all right. Some can't. The 19th best player in Texas think the 9th best team in TX can use him. But he's slow and can't get a shot off against D1-caliber players.

The rest are open season for all. The 149th PG isn't good enough for D1. He knows he's not going to get paid to play but he'd like to ball a few more years while he's young. Maybe he wants to got to the Ag school in VA in D2 to play some second level ball. Or maybe some nearby D3 to hang onto some of that HS glory.

I'd be good with this.

Similar things in beta were suggested but then a few folks said those ratings were arbritary and Spud would rant about entitlement. It would devolve into nonsense. Seble compromised with the Red Light to appease both groups.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 3/3/2017 10:01:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/3/2017 9:32:00 AM (view original):
I don't think VH to moderate means double the recruiting credit. I thought we said you needed to have something like 80% of the VH credit leader to be High.

I thought the example they gave in beta is that if a team has 2/3rd's of total credit they would 100% sign.

I could be wrong but it's the premise I was under.

In context of a discussion about effort credit, and how much was needed to get to signing range, seble did not give us a hard number, but did say (IIRC) that in a 63-37 battle (effort credit, not signing odds), 37 was not enough to get into signing range. So a figure somewhere north of ~60% of effort credit of the leader is the floor for signing range. I doubt it could be as high as 80%. That's a 56-44 2-way battle, and if that's the floor, the signing odds gradient stretch would be way too steep.

Posted by Benis on 3/3/2017 10:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2017 10:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 3/3/2017 9:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jcfreder on 3/3/2017 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Also, is it true that D2 and D3 get the same amount of AP per opening as D1? If so, why? Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school? Seems unrealistic that a D3 school can pile up AP, or that a recruit would even care about the 1400th phone call.

+2

-9 They already have more value than D3. So give D3 less?

Do we all agree that D1 and D3 should never battle for a recruit? Someone has reached too high or someone has dipped too low. Right?

Top 250 are exclusive D1. These kids think someone is going to pay them to play when they're done with college. Not all of them are right but some can play D-League, Euro ball, etc, etc.

Top 125 at each position are restricted to D1/D2. These think they can play big boy CBB or at least sit on the bench for someone who plays on TV Saturday afternoon. But they're not all right. Some can't. The 19th best player in Texas think the 9th best team in TX can use him. But he's slow and can't get a shot off against D1-caliber players.

The rest are open season for all. The 149th PG isn't good enough for D1. He knows he's not going to get paid to play but he'd like to ball a few more years while he's young. Maybe he wants to got to the Ag school in VA in D2 to play some second level ball. Or maybe some nearby D3 to hang onto some of that HS glory.

I'd be good with this.

Similar things in beta were suggested but then a few folks said those ratings were arbritary and Spud would rant about entitlement. It would devolve into nonsense. Seble compromised with the Red Light to appease both groups.

Isn't the fix here to make DI caliber players who "want success" or "want strong conference" to mean "wants DI success only" and "wants a strong DI conference"? It strikes me as really silly for a DI-caliber player who wants success to be anything but "very bad" for a DII or DIII school.

TJ, I wouldn't argue "That's how it was in 2.0" under any circumstance.

There are a few kids playing streetball who could play D1. My point was, IN THIS GAME, D1 and D3 should not be chasing the same player, They simply should not. I'd have no problem being restricted from Top 125 at each position in D3 or Top 250 in D2. You just can't discover them thus you cannot waste AP on them if D1 comes knocking.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 3/3/2017 10:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/3/2017 9:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jcfreder on 3/3/2017 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Also, is it true that D2 and D3 get the same amount of AP per opening as D1? If so, why? Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school? Seems unrealistic that a D3 school can pile up AP, or that a recruit would even care about the 1400th phone call.

+1

Couple counter points to this:

1. D1 teams get the same amount of AP but they mean more.
2. I think about AP as a ton of different type of things. One AP might be a postcard sent to a recruit, ten might be a phone call, 50 might be a trip to the kids HS....if helps me, rationalize it.

+1. Syracuse's APs are worth way more than the NYU.

I'm all for establishing diminishing returns, but just adding APs by division makes zero sense.

Posted by johnsensing on 3/3/2017 11:05:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/3/2017 10:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2017 10:15:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 3/3/2017 9:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jcfreder on 3/3/2017 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Also, is it true that D2 and D3 get the same amount of AP per opening as D1? If so, why? Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school? Seems unrealistic that a D3 school can pile up AP, or that a recruit would even care about the 1400th phone call.

+2

-9 They already have more value than D3. So give D3 less?

Do we all agree that D1 and D3 should never battle for a recruit? Someone has reached too high or someone has dipped too low. Right?

Top 250 are exclusive D1. These kids think someone is going to pay them to play when they're done with college. Not all of them are right but some can play D-League, Euro ball, etc, etc.

Top 125 at each position are restricted to D1/D2. These think they can play big boy CBB or at least sit on the bench for someone who plays on TV Saturday afternoon. But they're not all right. Some can't. The 19th best player in Texas think the 9th best team in TX can use him. But he's slow and can't get a shot off against D1-caliber players.

The rest are open season for all. The 149th PG isn't good enough for D1. He knows he's not going to get paid to play but he'd like to ball a few more years while he's young. Maybe he wants to got to the Ag school in VA in D2 to play some second level ball. Or maybe some nearby D3 to hang onto some of that HS glory.

I'd be good with this.

Similar things in beta were suggested but then a few folks said those ratings were arbritary and Spud would rant about entitlement. It would devolve into nonsense. Seble compromised with the Red Light to appease both groups.

Isn't the fix here to make DI caliber players who "want success" or "want strong conference" to mean "wants DI success only" and "wants a strong DI conference"? It strikes me as really silly for a DI-caliber player who wants success to be anything but "very bad" for a DII or DIII school.

That's close to what I suggested in beta, kind of got drowned out in the mess benis talked about. The wants success preference should, in my opinion, be the most powerful preference on its own (it might be, but I suspect playing time is right there with it), and it should come with an increased instance of the guy going juco instead of dropping divisions.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 3/3/2017 9:14:00 AM (view original):
an A+ D3 team.

The recruit: Joseph Ray

The Teams: NYU (D3) and Syracuse (D1)
Preferences:

CATEGORY

Playing Time

Wants to Play
NYU Very Good (20 promised minutes)
Syracuse -None

Success
Wants Success
NYU Good
Syracuse VERY good

Play Style
Perimeter Offense
NYU Very Bad (21%)
Syracuse Worse very bad (<21%)




NYU's effort

1400 AP
8 HV (400 AP?)
1 CV (150 AP)
20 minutes (100 AP)

~2050 AP

Syracuse's effort

100 AP
3 HV (150 AP)
1 CV (150 AP)

~ 400 AP


Syracuse crushed NYU, NYU was moderate meaning SU's total effort was at least twice as powerful.

I still get scared when a A+/A-/A division 1 or division 2 team comes knocking on the door...

Posted by zorzii on 3/3/2017 9:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jcfreder on 3/3/2017 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Also, is it true that D2 and D3 get the same amount of AP per opening as D1? If so, why? Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school? Seems unrealistic that a D3 school can pile up AP, or that a recruit would even care about the 1400th phone call.

+2

LOL, - 10. "Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school?" Their phones are the same, but as you can plainly see in the OP, their effect is practically neutered by comparison.

Also, "But I'm not sure why you say "crushed." It was VH vs Moderate." Well, that is 100% vs 0% -- how much more crushed do you want?

Also, "Isn't the fix here to make DI caliber players who "want success" or "want strong conference" to mean "wants DI success only" and "wants a strong DI conference"?" Nope, that's the same as capping, which has been thoroughly debunked in what seems like dozens of threads.

Posted by CoachSpud on 3/3/2017 3:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 3/3/2017 9:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jcfreder on 3/3/2017 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Also, is it true that D2 and D3 get the same amount of AP per opening as D1? If so, why? Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school? Seems unrealistic that a D3 school can pile up AP, or that a recruit would even care about the 1400th phone call.

+2

LOL, - 10. "Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school?" Their phones are the same, but as you can plainly see in the OP, their effect is practically neutered by comparison.

Also, "But I'm not sure why you say "crushed." It was VH vs Moderate." Well, that is 100% vs 0% -- how much more crushed do you want?

Also, "Isn't the fix here to make DI caliber players who "want success" or "want strong conference" to mean "wants DI success only" and "wants a strong DI conference"?" Nope, that's the same as capping, which has been thoroughly debunked in what seems like dozens of threads.

Actually, spud, my proposed fix is not the same as capping. If the player "wants rebuild," or doesn't care about success, DIII coaches still have a shot. But it makes absolutely no sense for a DI-caliber player who wants success to give a DIII school any interest at all. And in any event, I don't recall any "thorough debunking" regarding capping -- what I recall is a lot of people saying that capping seems like a good idea, and you throwing a fit about poor DIII coaches who don't get a fair shot at DI players. I don't know -- maybe it's because mike is pro-capping, and the two of you have approx. 50% of the posts on these boards.

Posted by johnsensing on 3/3/2017 4:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 3/3/2017 3:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 3/3/2017 9:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jcfreder on 3/3/2017 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Also, is it true that D2 and D3 get the same amount of AP per opening as D1? If so, why? Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school? Seems unrealistic that a D3 school can pile up AP, or that a recruit would even care about the 1400th phone call.

+2

LOL, - 10. "Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school?" Their phones are the same, but as you can plainly see in the OP, their effect is practically neutered by comparison.

Also, "But I'm not sure why you say "crushed." It was VH vs Moderate." Well, that is 100% vs 0% -- how much more crushed do you want?

Also, "Isn't the fix here to make DI caliber players who "want success" or "want strong conference" to mean "wants DI success only" and "wants a strong DI conference"?" Nope, that's the same as capping, which has been thoroughly debunked in what seems like dozens of threads.

Actually, spud, my proposed fix is not the same as capping. If the player "wants rebuild," or doesn't care about success, DIII coaches still have a shot. But it makes absolutely no sense for a DI-caliber player who wants success to give a DIII school any interest at all. And in any event, I don't recall any "thorough debunking" regarding capping -- what I recall is a lot of people saying that capping seems like a good idea, and you throwing a fit about poor DIII coaches who don't get a fair shot at DI players. I don't know -- maybe it's because mike is pro-capping, and the two of you have approx. 50% of the posts on these boards.

I remember this too...

"Also, "Isn't the fix here to make DI caliber players who "want success" or "want strong conference" to mean "wants DI success only" and "wants a strong DI conference"?"

"Actually, spud, my proposed fix is not the same as capping.?"

Hmm, I'll bold your own words where you cap that player to D1 "ONLY." Heck, I'll even underline it for you.

Posted by johnsensing on 3/3/2017 4:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 3/3/2017 3:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 3/3/2017 9:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jcfreder on 3/3/2017 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Also, is it true that D2 and D3 get the same amount of AP per opening as D1? If so, why? Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school? Seems unrealistic that a D3 school can pile up AP, or that a recruit would even care about the 1400th phone call.

+2

LOL, - 10. "Are they suggesting that a D3 school has the same power to send phone calls and emails as a D1 school?" Their phones are the same, but as you can plainly see in the OP, their effect is practically neutered by comparison.

Also, "But I'm not sure why you say "crushed." It was VH vs Moderate." Well, that is 100% vs 0% -- how much more crushed do you want?

Also, "Isn't the fix here to make DI caliber players who "want success" or "want strong conference" to mean "wants DI success only" and "wants a strong DI conference"?" Nope, that's the same as capping, which has been thoroughly debunked in what seems like dozens of threads.

Actually, spud, my proposed fix is not the same as capping. If the player "wants rebuild," or doesn't care about success, DIII coaches still have a shot. But it makes absolutely no sense for a DI-caliber player who wants success to give a DIII school any interest at all. And in any event, I don't recall any "thorough debunking" regarding capping -- what I recall is a lot of people saying that capping seems like a good idea, and you throwing a fit about poor DIII coaches who don't get a fair shot at DI players. I don't know -- maybe it's because mike is pro-capping, and the two of you have approx. 50% of the posts on these boards.

I don't know if you and I are using "capping" with the same meaning. In this thread, just a few posts earlier, I've suggested locking D2/D3 out of the Top 250 and D3 out of the Top 125 at each position. I am definitely pro-capping for HV.

I consider your suggestion a form of capping. Semantics.

Posted by Benis on 3/3/2017 4:21:00 PM (view original):
I consider your suggestion a form of capping. Semantics.

Fair enough. Spud calls it capping, I call it making preferences mean something. It's not something that's gonna affect me either way. Just another way WIS dropped the ball on 3.0.