I once had a 96 stam player on a press team with no real other talent and he put up great numbers. In press, stam is important.

Did he put up great numbers because he was playing more minutes? In other words, was his performance per minute played better than a guy with similar ratings but lower stamina?

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/5/2019 10:42:00 PM (view original):
Like most things, stamina is super important in certain Situations but I would never not recruit someone because they had stamina in the 60s.

I mean maybe if i if I was running some zone team and was only running an 8 man rotation I wimght sacrifice skills for stamina but that’s really the only time I would do it.

I have ave a hard time believing in the hard core press guys saying “ I would take an 80 core 90 stamina guy over a 90 core 65 stamina guy”. That’s an awful lot to give up for 4 minutes

I'd take the 80 core 90 ST guy if I'm running Press.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/6/2019 12:10:00 PM (view original):
Did he put up great numbers because he was playing more minutes? In other words, was his performance per minute played better than a guy with similar ratings but lower stamina?

I was on fatigue and he came off the bench. He just got crazy stats and remained in the game longer. He had 98 stam. I will link him later on today.

With FB/P, I tried not to take guys who didn’t project to 75+. A few exceptions, but too many exceptions on a team can sink a FB/P.

I tend to generalize like this, understanding this is a generalization, and can vary depending on distribution usage and what the other guy is doing.

In normal sets (not FB, press, or press/man), at normal pace, with normal usage:
60 stamina is at or near optimal for 16 minutes
70 stamina is at or near optimal for 20 minutes
80 stamina is at or near optimal for 24 minutes
90 stamina is at or near optimal for 28 minutes
If playing uptempo, subtract 2 minutes. If high distribution, subtract 2 minutes. If playing FB, press, or press/man, subtract 2 minutes for each.
If playing slowdown, add 2 minutes. If playing zone, add 2 minutes.

Not perfect, but decent rule of thumb, I think.

Posted by Benis on 1/6/2019 12:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/5/2019 10:42:00 PM (view original):
Like most things, stamina is super important in certain Situations but I would never not recruit someone because they had stamina in the 60s.

I mean maybe if i if I was running some zone team and was only running an 8 man rotation I wimght sacrifice skills for stamina but that’s really the only time I would do it.

I have ave a hard time believing in the hard core press guys saying “ I would take an 80 core 90 stamina guy over a 90 core 65 stamina guy”. That’s an awful lot to give up for 4 minutes

I'd take the 80 core 90 ST guy if I'm running Press.

What about a 70 core guy?

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/5/2019 10:42:00 PM (view original):
Like most things, stamina is super important in certain Situations but I would never not recruit someone because they had stamina in the 60s.

I mean maybe if i if I was running some zone team and was only running an 8 man rotation I wimght sacrifice skills for stamina but that’s really the only time I would do it.

I have ave a hard time believing in the hard core press guys saying “ I would take an 80 core 90 stamina guy over a 90 core 65 stamina guy”. That’s an awful lot to give up for 4 minutes

I would take an 80 core 90 stamina guy over a 90 core 65 stamina guy

At d1 arfy?

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/6/2019 6:14:00 PM (view original):
At d1 arfy?

Yeah, why does it matter what level?

Yeah, I forgot. I don't get 90 core guys at div 1. The fourth team that came in at 18% gets him.

Posted by Benis on 1/6/2019 6:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/6/2019 6:14:00 PM (view original):
At d1 arfy?

Yeah, why does it matter what level?

Because an 80 core guy is still excellent at d2 and phenomenal at d3 but only average (or below) at d1.

A few things on stamina:
1. The standard deviation of stamina for teams is not nearly what it is for any other attribute. I'd say that it is rare for me to be ahead or behind in overall team stamina by more or less than 10 points, while i constantly have advantages of 10 points or more in the attributes I feel are more important. Look at the top 25 team ratings for difference attributes. In stamina the difference between 1 and 25 is usually about 5 points or so, where in other attributes it's much more.

2. Stamina is correlated pretty closely to how experienced a team is. In general older teams will have guys with better stamina than younger teams, just because the floor rating for stamina is much higher than all other attributes. Because of this teams with a significant stamina advantage often have an IQ advantage that acts as a confounding variable when looking at stamina. Also, when I say I don't recruit for it, that doesn't mean I don't happen to have good stamina. My cal tech team had the highest stamina in all of d3 this season without me recruiting for it. That would never happen with any other attribute by accident.

3. You can game plan for stamina differences better than other attributes. Slow down is a great equalizer in this game in regard to stamina. I ran fb/press at uconn Maryland and Georgia tech and couldn't wear other teams out even if they carried 3 walkons because they played slow down. It is much tougher to overcome a significant difference in the main core attributes.

4. I don't think of stamina as a average but a sum. If I play 12 guys with stamina ratings of 70 that's a sum of 840 and I'll have an advantage in regards to stamina compared to the team that has an 80 in stamina but only goes 10 deep.

5. In fb/press situations teams play more speed, meaning more guards. I find guards have better stamina in general than bigs, so that confounds the stamina argument also.

6. More of an fyi, going uptempo has little to no effect on your opponents stamina (directly) it gives you more possessions at the expense of tiring your guys out quicker and having them be less efficient offensively. I rarely go uptempo anymore.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/6/2019 7:41:00 AM (view original):
Top dog, are you talking about fb/fcp? If so stamina is arguably the third most important stat. If you are talking all sets I don’t believe it is

I know i'm late. But yes I was, mainly. Or press with anything really

Posted by piman314 on 1/6/2019 10:43:00 PM (view original):
A few things on stamina:
1. The standard deviation of stamina for teams is not nearly what it is for any other attribute. I'd say that it is rare for me to be ahead or behind in overall team stamina by more or less than 10 points, while i constantly have advantages of 10 points or more in the attributes I feel are more important. Look at the top 25 team ratings for difference attributes. In stamina the difference between 1 and 25 is usually about 5 points or so, where in other attributes it's much more.

2. Stamina is correlated pretty closely to how experienced a team is. In general older teams will have guys with better stamina than younger teams, just because the floor rating for stamina is much higher than all other attributes. Because of this teams with a significant stamina advantage often have an IQ advantage that acts as a confounding variable when looking at stamina. Also, when I say I don't recruit for it, that doesn't mean I don't happen to have good stamina. My cal tech team had the highest stamina in all of d3 this season without me recruiting for it. That would never happen with any other attribute by accident.

3. You can game plan for stamina differences better than other attributes. Slow down is a great equalizer in this game in regard to stamina. I ran fb/press at uconn Maryland and Georgia tech and couldn't wear other teams out even if they carried 3 walkons because they played slow down. It is much tougher to overcome a significant difference in the main core attributes.

4. I don't think of stamina as a average but a sum. If I play 12 guys with stamina ratings of 70 that's a sum of 840 and I'll have an advantage in regards to stamina compared to the team that has an 80 in stamina but only goes 10 deep.

5. In fb/press situations teams play more speed, meaning more guards. I find guards have better stamina in general than bigs, so that confounds the stamina argument also.

6. More of an fyi, going uptempo has little to no effect on your opponents stamina (directly) it gives you more possessions at the expense of tiring your guys out quicker and having them be less efficient offensively. I rarely go uptempo anymore.

Your point number 4 is excellent. I think the same. I see it as more of a sum than a average.

But I strongly disagree with point number 2 about experienced teams having good stamina just based on having a lot of upperclassmen. There's times where I target stamina at D2 and still end up <80 team stamina. Having just 2 upperclassmen in the low 60s can kill your chances of having +80 team stamina. And as you stated, especially with bigs.

The odd thing is, I realize i'm "arguing" with some of the greats on this topic. So it's odd for me to see some of you say stamina isn't important, while your team's have high stamina.

Last thing to add, you admittedly said you don't run much uptempo. I assume that's because you get the results you want. But what if you targeted stamina much more? You think you would have good results with uptempo? I do personally. Do you feel that way?

Great points Piman. But I don't agree that uptempo has little to no affect on the other team's fatigue. It has an impact.