Recruiting help Topic

Posted by shoe3 on 11/28/2019 7:16:00 PM (view original):
Promised minutes aren’t a multiplier for players who don’t want playing time. Promised starts are never multipliers, stand alone only. Before seble got back, there was misinformation, and a lot of misunderstanding, even among CS, apparently.

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Date User
1/13/2018 4:06 PM shoe3
It appears there are now conflicting responses from CS regarding whether promises affect the value of visits for players without a preference to playing time. See this thread - https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=506533

Can you please clarify? Is there any benefit at all in promising a start and/or minutes to a player prior to conducting visits if the player has no playing time preference?
1/13/2018 6:43 PM Customer Support
The only extra impact from a minutes promise is that if the player has a "Wants to play" preference, the promise will flip that preference into a positive one. Then it has a similar impact as other preferences.
1/13/2018 7:15 PM shoe3
And there is no multiplier effect on promised starts for visits to a player with no playing time preference? Just the stand alone one time value? So promising a start as a last resort for a player with no playing time preference has the same effect as promising the start up front, before visits?

Or are you purposely specifying minutes here because you’d rather not get specific on the starts? Just making sure we’re not spreading misinformation based on a previously mistaken CS response to new users.
1/14/2018 5:39 PM Customer Support
No, promising starts does not impact the preference at all.
1/14/2018 9:33 PM shoe3
I understand that, the question is whether the start affects the value of visits?
1/15/2018 10:39 AM Customer Support
As mentioned earlier, the only boost is related to flipping the "Wants to Play" preference to Good or Very Good. That only happens by promising minutes. So, outside of that, there is no other boost related to promises.
1/15/2018 11:54 AM shoe3
Ok one more clarification, because one way or another, a mistaken CS response has led to misinformation being spread, and I’m intent on avoiding that.

Going back to the original, apparently mistaken CS response to a scenario presented in the thread I posted, when a player has no preference for playing time, a team that offers a start before doing visits is getting no additional value than they would get by promising a start at the very end of recruiting as a last resort. Is that right?

Simple yes or no, and I’ll stop bugging you, thanks!
1/15/2018 11:54 AM shoe3
1/15/2018 12:19 PM Customer Support
That's correct.
fantastic exchange there shoe! great detective work, thanks for sharing!! it is so common for people to say 'cs said X' and either to not have the backing info, or for me to have been there and know what was said, and its like - man it really sounds like people are reading into it way too much, or at a minimum, failing to take into account the context and the inherent ambiguity.

but your exchange is just great. thanks again
11/28/2019 11:02 PM
**** - MY BAD GUYS!!

i was on the co-coach team with chapel and posted as him. i noticed and ripped it down and went to paste under my account, but somehow screwed up and repasted again. that was me in this thread. man, i've posted as someone 100 times, a co-coach, because i so absent mindedly go to the forums when im doing stuff on teams and get distracted or forget what i meant to do. but i always have caught it. really sorry to chap & everyone!
11/28/2019 11:04 PM
Posted by upsetcity on 11/28/2019 3:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by chapelhillne on 11/28/2019 1:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by buddhagamer on 11/28/2019 12:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by shoe3 on 11/28/2019 11:10:00 AM (view original):
Posted by mullycj on 11/28/2019 10:04:00 AM (view original):
Still..... D+ vs A+ is absurd given what he threw in.

What was the final battle %?
If he was at moderate, the odds would be 100-0.

If it’s 80 AP total, say 20 /cycle over 4 cycles, this result is completely in line with what I would expect, assuming the rival put in significantly more (say, 60/cycle) AP, made promises, and did more visits. D+ can’t touch A+ if effort is equal or anywhere close; but 20 AP/cycle, only 60% visits, and no promises is leaving a whole lot of room. Remember, this is a second session only battle, meaning the isolated impact of promises is especially large.

If the OP is saying 80 AP per cycle for the A+, then there might be something else going on. Promises are big, but I wouldn’t think they would cover that much ground, to hold the A+ to moderate in that situation.
When a human takes over for a SIM, only the recruiting $$$ is refunded but any accumulated AP is not and stays with the recruits. The other coach likely still had all of first recruiting session AP into that recruit so the AP difference could be quite large. Also, I've heard that prestige changes might not even take effect in RS2 and the OP was still only getting credit using his RS1 prestige.

I've also been told by CS that even when the recruit does NOT have a PT preference, its still a multiplier when offering starts/minutes (it's just a much larger multiplier when they want PT). Thus its likely the mid-major offered start/minutes immediately followed by the full CV/20 HV dump (magnifying the recruiting credit for each visit).
WHAT??

that would be huge news to me. promises as a multiplier, even without a preference - as opposed to a fixed amount (which may vary per recruit and per school offering, but still given a school and a recruit, i thought it was a fixed value).

that is pretty crazy. i actually HATE promises, i feel like 3.0 promises are total BS, you have to promise so many recruits and throw away the regular season, it just sucks. i wish they'd rip them out root and stem. but them being a % that is not retroactive is a lot different than a fixed value and would have to do even more of the damn things. any chance you still have that CS ticket around and could post here?
This is actually something that I've been thinking lately. It just seems very gimmicky. Go to any P6 conference and look at all of the successful teams. Most will be starting multiple freshman, until they reach their promise for the season, then immediately send him to the bench. It may alter their regular season, but the best teams will win come NT and they just need to make it.

The kicker? They're also benefitting by keeping the veteran on the bench as he was also, often times, the highly touted recruit who was offered a promise, but the team is keeping him on the bench to prevent his progressions up the Big Board.

I do like the promises and I think they're an important part of the game. I don't like the idea of removing them. What I've been thinking is to make MORE promises - diluting the meaning of each one - and holding you more accountable to reaching those that you offer. Breakdown promised starts into sub-categories such as "promise regular season start", "promise CT/NT/PI start (if you make it that far), "promise sophomore year start". That was they aren't starting 27 games and get sat during the ones any player would most want to play. The lower level teams would be more likely to make those additional starts as they want to reach success, while successful teams may be more hesitant to offer a freshman starts during their NT.
sorry, that was me you are quoting, my bad (i co-coach with chap and screwed up and accidentally posted as him).

anyway, i always figured most people wouldn't like my preference, which is to totally nix promises.

however, i do think a good compromise is to do one of 2 things:
1) limit the number of promises you can have outstanding, so folks could maybe have only 2 guys who were promised more than 15m. this would also add strategy to recruiting, because you'd have to strategically decide which guys to offer the promises to!

2) make promises permanent - so they'd carry forward as-is every season. i don't like this as its nice to be able to mess with your team lineup and stuff, to improvise and find stuff that works.

3) ill add this - remove the way promises are enforced - as is it KILLS the ability to say well, for these 5 games, im going to try the lineup i really want, or to experiment, so at least i can do some fun stuff or NT prep work during the regular season. instead, have players only quit if you don't meet say 70% of the promise - and if you meet 70 to 100%, then there is a corresponding work ethic hit - maybe 1 point per % you don't meet?
11/28/2019 11:13 PM
Just to summarize the conclusions on promises from shoe’s conversion with CS:

1. Promised starts have only a one-time instantaneous effect and no impact on the Wants to Play preference.

2. Promised minutes also have a one-time instantaneous effect, but additionally give you a boost going forward through the Wants to Play preference.

Am I following this correctly?
12/1/2019 9:00 AM
Posted by slayterhill on 12/1/2019 9:01:00 AM (view original):
Just to summarize the conclusions on promises from shoe’s conversion with CS:

1. Promised starts have only a one-time instantaneous effect and no impact on the Wants to Play preference.

2. Promised minutes also have a one-time instantaneous effect, but additionally give you a boost going forward through the Wants to Play preference.

Am I following this correctly?
That is correct.

And the "additional boost" you speak of in #2, isn't any longer related to the promised minutes you offered, specifically. It is related to the very good (or good) preference that you now have.

So that boost now is because you have X+1 very good preferences now. Whereas before, you only had X very good preferences.

If that makes sense
12/1/2019 11:43 AM
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