Posted by cbryant31 on 9/14/2020 2:04:00 AM (view original):
Can someone explain why coaches do two handles besides if they maxed out and wanted to do more than 10 teams?

I agree with top mostly but there are some folks in particular who strictly prefer 2 a day worlds. So for them "maxing out" only includes 3 worlds before the HD itch drives them to create another account.

It's important to note too that it is *possible* for people to have siblings, kids, parents, etc. play this game from the same IP (my dad plays under a separate ID although his internet fluency is fairly limited as is his HD ability) so an outright IP ban for having multiple accounts on the same IP wouldn't work. There are a few well known family members like oldresorter and majresorter who play this game.

Plus there are kids like sportsbulls who play who may occasionally sign on via a school computer or a college library computer, etc. and if two kids are playing HD at the same school there's also a chance they're sharing an IP.

In this instance it’s all the same user. I had a previous conversation where he said he was the second profile and even that was in violation of the 1K rule (944) but I didn’t push it.

Posted by beachhouse on 9/14/2020 8:37:00 AM (view original):
In this instance it’s all the same user. I had a previous conversation where he said he was the second profile and even that was in violation of the 1K rule (944) but I didn’t push it.

Yeah I'm just speaking generally to why it's hard to preemptively prevent these situations.

I think we're all in agreement that at a minimum what this user is doing is at least dancing around the FPG. If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, go for it. But I think everyone in this thread would stand behind you if you went to CS to provide full details on the situation & get their thoughts. If they take action against that user, that's ultimately on them not on you.

I appreciate the dialogue here. At least I am not coming out of left field with my thought process.

Posted by beachhouse on 9/14/2020 6:00:00 AM (view original):
1 world with all three profiles.

this is pretty damn ridiculous.

feel free to tell us who this is if they fight you for both guys.

is this world tark? i know tark is recruiting so seems like decent odds. tark is the hotbed of multi user accounts because it was 1) the only new world in forever and 2) the only 2/day in the game for a couple years.

i used to run 4 IDs just in tark. old timers like myself often did this for multiple reasons. first off, i must say - back when i started, in 1.0, there was no FSS, and nobody cared about multiple teams, it was widely done by the most prominent coaches. tons of coaches had multiple IDs and virtually none of them were the source of concerns around cheating. folks back then were happy to have more teams in worlds, more people to compete with, and conference mates were always glad to have a great coach in their midst, even if they played elsewhere in that world. the recruiting collusion that was happening, unrelated to the multiple teams stuff, and then FSS really changed that landscape. however, anyone who had IDs from back then may have wanted to continue using them because they already had the resumes, or the teams, and didn't want to move up.

the main thing for me is i wanted my old teams, so as i went d3->d2, i grabbed my d3 team on a new id, and again up the chain when i went to d1. with no fair play concerns, and zero interest in continuing in rupp, my only 1/day world, i really had no reason NOT to do this. and frankly tark was an awesome place to play back then and part of it was there were a couple dozen high end coaches with multiple teams in that world which meant it was quite competitive at all levels. plus folks got to know each other fairly well.

why would someone have multiple teams today? probably all the same reasons. only 3 2/day worlds, or maybe they wanted their d3 team as they moved up - or maybe all their HD buddies play in that world because that is the world they started in, so the only thing strong enough to pull them into their 3rd (or whatever) team is the opportunity to play with some of their HD friends in some other conference in that world.

i think sometimes the forest gets lost through the trees on these issues. we used to play this game with tons of multiple IDs and everything was fine. FSS / local recruiting changes in 2.0 made it harder to go on like that, but i seriously do not get the assumption that folks with multiple IDs are doing so to gain an advantage, instead of for some legit, fun based reason. in the rush to make sure everything was fair, we lost sight of making sure it was fun, and i think that continues to this day.

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/14/2020 11:31:00 AM (view original):
is this world tark? i know tark is recruiting so seems like decent odds. tark is the hotbed of multi user accounts because it was 1) the only new world in forever and 2) the only 2/day in the game for a couple years.

i used to run 4 IDs just in tark. old timers like myself often did this for multiple reasons. first off, i must say - back when i started, in 1.0, there was no FSS, and nobody cared about multiple teams, it was widely done by the most prominent coaches. tons of coaches had multiple IDs and virtually none of them were the source of concerns around cheating. folks back then were happy to have more teams in worlds, more people to compete with, and conference mates were always glad to have a great coach in their midst, even if they played elsewhere in that world. the recruiting collusion that was happening, unrelated to the multiple teams stuff, and then FSS really changed that landscape. however, anyone who had IDs from back then may have wanted to continue using them because they already had the resumes, or the teams, and didn't want to move up.

the main thing for me is i wanted my old teams, so as i went d3->d2, i grabbed my d3 team on a new id, and again up the chain when i went to d1. with no fair play concerns, and zero interest in continuing in rupp, my only 1/day world, i really had no reason NOT to do this. and frankly tark was an awesome place to play back then and part of it was there were a couple dozen high end coaches with multiple teams in that world which meant it was quite competitive at all levels. plus folks got to know each other fairly well.

why would someone have multiple teams today? probably all the same reasons. only 3 2/day worlds, or maybe they wanted their d3 team as they moved up - or maybe all their HD buddies play in that world because that is the world they started in, so the only thing strong enough to pull them into their 3rd (or whatever) team is the opportunity to play with some of their HD friends in some other conference in that world.

i think sometimes the forest gets lost through the trees on these issues. we used to play this game with tons of multiple IDs and everything was fine. FSS / local recruiting changes in 2.0 made it harder to go on like that, but i seriously do not get the assumption that folks with multiple IDs are doing so to gain an advantage, instead of for some legit, fun based reason. in the rush to make sure everything was fair, we lost sight of making sure it was fun, and i think that continues to this day.

+1 on this. Back during 1.0 I had four accounts (sol_phenom, sol_phenom2, freedomreign). Never did anything malicious and was largely driven by the desire to replace old teams I left to move up a level in 2 a day worlds.

Posted by sol_phenom3 on 9/14/2020 8:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cbryant31 on 9/14/2020 2:04:00 AM (view original):
Can someone explain why coaches do two handles besides if they maxed out and wanted to do more than 10 teams?

I agree with top mostly but there are some folks in particular who strictly prefer 2 a day worlds. So for them "maxing out" only includes 3 worlds before the HD itch drives them to create another account.

It's important to note too that it is *possible* for people to have siblings, kids, parents, etc. play this game from the same IP (my dad plays under a separate ID although his internet fluency is fairly limited as is his HD ability) so an outright IP ban for having multiple accounts on the same IP wouldn't work. There are a few well known family members like oldresorter and majresorter who play this game.

Plus there are kids like sportsbulls who play who may occasionally sign on via a school computer or a college library computer, etc. and if two kids are playing HD at the same school there's also a chance they're sharing an IP.

I feel like 2 kids using the same computer at a college is very unlikely to be an issue often. I also agree that banning an IP address isn't a good idea as I first mentioned. But with that, I feel like the most irritation here comes from the family member crews. I've been asked 100 times from 100 different coaches..... What is going on with the "gente's?".... there's 3 profiles gente002 gente005 gente008 or something like that.

To be clear I KNOW OF NOTHING FOUL WITH THESE GUYS. And I'm not claiming there is. But things like this always raise suspicion. It's just a quirky part of the game when brothers play, family plays, or any type of group that catches your eye for some reason. And we just have to sift thru it and hope we have coaches playing that have good intentions

Posted by topdogggbm on 9/14/2020 12:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sol_phenom3 on 9/14/2020 8:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cbryant31 on 9/14/2020 2:04:00 AM (view original):
Can someone explain why coaches do two handles besides if they maxed out and wanted to do more than 10 teams?

I agree with top mostly but there are some folks in particular who strictly prefer 2 a day worlds. So for them "maxing out" only includes 3 worlds before the HD itch drives them to create another account.

It's important to note too that it is *possible* for people to have siblings, kids, parents, etc. play this game from the same IP (my dad plays under a separate ID although his internet fluency is fairly limited as is his HD ability) so an outright IP ban for having multiple accounts on the same IP wouldn't work. There are a few well known family members like oldresorter and majresorter who play this game.

Plus there are kids like sportsbulls who play who may occasionally sign on via a school computer or a college library computer, etc. and if two kids are playing HD at the same school there's also a chance they're sharing an IP.

I feel like 2 kids using the same computer at a college is very unlikely to be an issue often. I also agree that banning an IP address isn't a good idea as I first mentioned. But with that, I feel like the most irritation here comes from the family member crews. I've been asked 100 times from 100 different coaches..... What is going on with the "gente's?".... there's 3 profiles gente002 gente005 gente008 or something like that.

To be clear I KNOW OF NOTHING FOUL WITH THESE GUYS. And I'm not claiming there is. But things like this always raise suspicion. It's just a quirky part of the game when brothers play, family plays, or any type of group that catches your eye for some reason. And we just have to sift thru it and hope we have coaches playing that have good intentions

I'd say 2 grown men using the same IP at work is a more likely scenario

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/14/2020 11:31:00 AM (view original):
is this world tark? i know tark is recruiting so seems like decent odds. tark is the hotbed of multi user accounts because it was 1) the only new world in forever and 2) the only 2/day in the game for a couple years.

i used to run 4 IDs just in tark. old timers like myself often did this for multiple reasons. first off, i must say - back when i started, in 1.0, there was no FSS, and nobody cared about multiple teams, it was widely done by the most prominent coaches. tons of coaches had multiple IDs and virtually none of them were the source of concerns around cheating. folks back then were happy to have more teams in worlds, more people to compete with, and conference mates were always glad to have a great coach in their midst, even if they played elsewhere in that world. the recruiting collusion that was happening, unrelated to the multiple teams stuff, and then FSS really changed that landscape. however, anyone who had IDs from back then may have wanted to continue using them because they already had the resumes, or the teams, and didn't want to move up.

the main thing for me is i wanted my old teams, so as i went d3->d2, i grabbed my d3 team on a new id, and again up the chain when i went to d1. with no fair play concerns, and zero interest in continuing in rupp, my only 1/day world, i really had no reason NOT to do this. and frankly tark was an awesome place to play back then and part of it was there were a couple dozen high end coaches with multiple teams in that world which meant it was quite competitive at all levels. plus folks got to know each other fairly well.

why would someone have multiple teams today? probably all the same reasons. only 3 2/day worlds, or maybe they wanted their d3 team as they moved up - or maybe all their HD buddies play in that world because that is the world they started in, so the only thing strong enough to pull them into their 3rd (or whatever) team is the opportunity to play with some of their HD friends in some other conference in that world.

i think sometimes the forest gets lost through the trees on these issues. we used to play this game with tons of multiple IDs and everything was fine. FSS / local recruiting changes in 2.0 made it harder to go on like that, but i seriously do not get the assumption that folks with multiple IDs are doing so to gain an advantage, instead of for some legit, fun based reason. in the rush to make sure everything was fair, we lost sight of making sure it was fun, and i think that continues to this day.

I agree the difference between 99% and 100% fair play is really hard to reach....

But I personally think having the same guy battling the same team with 2 different accounts is not near to 99% fair play?

I can't think of many things that would bug me more than teaming up on someone with yourself. A lot of fairplay stuff with collusion is benefitting teams with obviously has a trickle-down to hurt everyone else, but this is just slamming a single coach.

Posted by cubcub113 on 9/14/2020 3:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/14/2020 11:31:00 AM (view original):
is this world tark? i know tark is recruiting so seems like decent odds. tark is the hotbed of multi user accounts because it was 1) the only new world in forever and 2) the only 2/day in the game for a couple years.

i used to run 4 IDs just in tark. old timers like myself often did this for multiple reasons. first off, i must say - back when i started, in 1.0, there was no FSS, and nobody cared about multiple teams, it was widely done by the most prominent coaches. tons of coaches had multiple IDs and virtually none of them were the source of concerns around cheating. folks back then were happy to have more teams in worlds, more people to compete with, and conference mates were always glad to have a great coach in their midst, even if they played elsewhere in that world. the recruiting collusion that was happening, unrelated to the multiple teams stuff, and then FSS really changed that landscape. however, anyone who had IDs from back then may have wanted to continue using them because they already had the resumes, or the teams, and didn't want to move up.

the main thing for me is i wanted my old teams, so as i went d3->d2, i grabbed my d3 team on a new id, and again up the chain when i went to d1. with no fair play concerns, and zero interest in continuing in rupp, my only 1/day world, i really had no reason NOT to do this. and frankly tark was an awesome place to play back then and part of it was there were a couple dozen high end coaches with multiple teams in that world which meant it was quite competitive at all levels. plus folks got to know each other fairly well.

why would someone have multiple teams today? probably all the same reasons. only 3 2/day worlds, or maybe they wanted their d3 team as they moved up - or maybe all their HD buddies play in that world because that is the world they started in, so the only thing strong enough to pull them into their 3rd (or whatever) team is the opportunity to play with some of their HD friends in some other conference in that world.

i think sometimes the forest gets lost through the trees on these issues. we used to play this game with tons of multiple IDs and everything was fine. FSS / local recruiting changes in 2.0 made it harder to go on like that, but i seriously do not get the assumption that folks with multiple IDs are doing so to gain an advantage, instead of for some legit, fun based reason. in the rush to make sure everything was fair, we lost sight of making sure it was fun, and i think that continues to this day.

I agree the difference between 99% and 100% fair play is really hard to reach....

But I personally think having the same guy battling the same team with 2 different accounts is not near to 99% fair play?

I can't think of many things that would bug me more than teaming up on someone with yourself. A lot of fairplay stuff with collusion is benefitting teams with obviously has a trickle-down to hurt everyone else, but this is just slamming a single coach.

8.3.2

well, if the coach is intentionally teaming up, i would 100% agree that its one of the most severe situations. however, a reasonably well intentioned person can find themselves in a tough situation with an unclear 'proper resolution', and with little time to analyze before deciding. there's situations hard not only for a guy first encountering them with 30m to make a decision, but for us here, with infinite time (i think) and no emotional attachment to the situation. i know nothing about the context of the above, but for example - in d1 in particular, immediate assignments of top priority is frequent (before cycle 1 rolls). let's say a coach has 2 teams 2000 miles away, and a school near one ends up targeting a far from home player (or an international) who was the top priority of the far away one - while also targeting a local player that is the top priority of the close school. suppose this two team coach has consistent strategy and roughly always battles for his top target if it is contested by 1 other coach. what should happen now?

you could say, the 2 team coach should walk away from both guys, but that ends up hurting 2 guys he battles instead, and now the single team coach gets a huge advantage (especially on the far guy he'd probably lose) - maybe he wins both and then two titles with them. that seems not great and unduly harsh on the 2 team coach - it could be a disaster for both players - plus he's using info from one team to affect his decision on the other. you could say the 2 team coach should pick 1 and battle hard, and drop the other. that is probably what i would do, but its still pretty questionable - you are sharing info with yourself, and to a significant degree, the other coach.

you could say, the 2 team coach always, in any situation like this (playing himself in the NT, whatever), he should do his level best to do what he would do in the exact same situation with each team, except if he wasn't coaching the other team. that is generally the soundest theory i think, at least for a general approach to these situations - but it can be pretty rough on the coach(es) caught in the middle, especially in this scenario where that means the 2 team coach goes all in on both.

anyway, what would you have that coach do? i sort of doubt there'd be general consensus on the topic, although maybe sort of just among the forum-going subset of coaches. i would totally buy the response 'this is why you shouldn't have 2 teams like that'. i sort of agree, i don't mind teams in different levels (d3 vs d1 etc), even close - but i do think two teams at the same level are an issue even at distance. even if we should totally prohibit multiple teams, that just isn't the case now, so i think some understanding that these things can occur relatively innocently is in order.

regardless - the real question is this - once such a situation occurs, how should it be handled? my starting point, if its a coach who seemingly hasn't had problems like this in the past, and probably didn't start this situation intentionally - is he should be reached out to. the coach in the middle can explain his situation. this isn't theoretical, i've had a couple dozen of these over sitemail over the years, so have a ton of other coaches (although most may be retired by now). the scenario i based my example on was real, although the circumstance is made up (i forget), but the 2 team coach battled for both in the end and the coach he battled knew him (in game only) and was cool with it because he knew that was what the guy would have done independently. other times, many times (and probably that time too) the coach with 2 teams gains better awareness of the potential stickiness of multiple teams and its impact on other coaches, and works harder to avoid issues in the future.

the wrong approach IMO is to report the issue to seble without even having a conversation - i mean, if its clear cut abuse, or a repeat issue, that's different. i also don't know how this situation is shaking out, but i'm sort of basing this on the first suggestion to just go ahead and report it - what was known at that time - which was very minimal. if it turns out bad, ok then so be it. but why not just talk to the guy and ask him to explain? it could end as a constructive experience, hearts and minds and all that, a win for fair play in the long run - while keeping all involved coaches in the game. worst case scenario coaches who could be perfectly good members of the community some day end up gone. if the guy takes no responsibility, and you feel you have to report it, then so be it.

tl;dr - dont be a narc when you might be able to accomplish more just talking to someone

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/14/2020 6:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 9/14/2020 3:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/14/2020 11:31:00 AM (view original):
is this world tark? i know tark is recruiting so seems like decent odds. tark is the hotbed of multi user accounts because it was 1) the only new world in forever and 2) the only 2/day in the game for a couple years.

i used to run 4 IDs just in tark. old timers like myself often did this for multiple reasons. first off, i must say - back when i started, in 1.0, there was no FSS, and nobody cared about multiple teams, it was widely done by the most prominent coaches. tons of coaches had multiple IDs and virtually none of them were the source of concerns around cheating. folks back then were happy to have more teams in worlds, more people to compete with, and conference mates were always glad to have a great coach in their midst, even if they played elsewhere in that world. the recruiting collusion that was happening, unrelated to the multiple teams stuff, and then FSS really changed that landscape. however, anyone who had IDs from back then may have wanted to continue using them because they already had the resumes, or the teams, and didn't want to move up.

the main thing for me is i wanted my old teams, so as i went d3->d2, i grabbed my d3 team on a new id, and again up the chain when i went to d1. with no fair play concerns, and zero interest in continuing in rupp, my only 1/day world, i really had no reason NOT to do this. and frankly tark was an awesome place to play back then and part of it was there were a couple dozen high end coaches with multiple teams in that world which meant it was quite competitive at all levels. plus folks got to know each other fairly well.

why would someone have multiple teams today? probably all the same reasons. only 3 2/day worlds, or maybe they wanted their d3 team as they moved up - or maybe all their HD buddies play in that world because that is the world they started in, so the only thing strong enough to pull them into their 3rd (or whatever) team is the opportunity to play with some of their HD friends in some other conference in that world.

i think sometimes the forest gets lost through the trees on these issues. we used to play this game with tons of multiple IDs and everything was fine. FSS / local recruiting changes in 2.0 made it harder to go on like that, but i seriously do not get the assumption that folks with multiple IDs are doing so to gain an advantage, instead of for some legit, fun based reason. in the rush to make sure everything was fair, we lost sight of making sure it was fun, and i think that continues to this day.

I agree the difference between 99% and 100% fair play is really hard to reach....

But I personally think having the same guy battling the same team with 2 different accounts is not near to 99% fair play?

I can't think of many things that would bug me more than teaming up on someone with yourself. A lot of fairplay stuff with collusion is benefitting teams with obviously has a trickle-down to hurt everyone else, but this is just slamming a single coach.

8.3.2

well, if the coach is intentionally teaming up, i would 100% agree that its one of the most severe situations. however, a reasonably well intentioned person can find themselves in a tough situation with an unclear 'proper resolution', and with little time to analyze before deciding. there's situations hard not only for a guy first encountering them with 30m to make a decision, but for us here, with infinite time (i think) and no emotional attachment to the situation. i know nothing about the context of the above, but for example - in d1 in particular, immediate assignments of top priority is frequent (before cycle 1 rolls). let's say a coach has 2 teams 2000 miles away, and a school near one ends up targeting a far from home player (or an international) who was the top priority of the far away one - while also targeting a local player that is the top priority of the close school. suppose this two team coach has consistent strategy and roughly always battles for his top target if it is contested by 1 other coach. what should happen now?

you could say, the 2 team coach should walk away from both guys, but that ends up hurting 2 guys he battles instead, and now the single team coach gets a huge advantage (especially on the far guy he'd probably lose) - maybe he wins both and then two titles with them. that seems not great and unduly harsh on the 2 team coach - it could be a disaster for both players - plus he's using info from one team to affect his decision on the other. you could say the 2 team coach should pick 1 and battle hard, and drop the other. that is probably what i would do, but its still pretty questionable - you are sharing info with yourself, and to a significant degree, the other coach.

you could say, the 2 team coach always, in any situation like this (playing himself in the NT, whatever), he should do his level best to do what he would do in the exact same situation with each team, except if he wasn't coaching the other team. that is generally the soundest theory i think, at least for a general approach to these situations - but it can be pretty rough on the coach(es) caught in the middle, especially in this scenario where that means the 2 team coach goes all in on both.

anyway, what would you have that coach do? i sort of doubt there'd be general consensus on the topic, although maybe sort of just among the forum-going subset of coaches. i would totally buy the response 'this is why you shouldn't have 2 teams like that'. i sort of agree, i don't mind teams in different levels (d3 vs d1 etc), even close - but i do think two teams at the same level are an issue even at distance. even if we should totally prohibit multiple teams, that just isn't the case now, so i think some understanding that these things can occur relatively innocently is in order.

regardless - the real question is this - once such a situation occurs, how should it be handled? my starting point, if its a coach who seemingly hasn't had problems like this in the past, and probably didn't start this situation intentionally - is he should be reached out to. the coach in the middle can explain his situation. this isn't theoretical, i've had a couple dozen of these over sitemail over the years, so have a ton of other coaches (although most may be retired by now). the scenario i based my example on was real, although the circumstance is made up (i forget), but the 2 team coach battled for both in the end and the coach he battled knew him (in game only) and was cool with it because he knew that was what the guy would have done independently. other times, many times (and probably that time too) the coach with 2 teams gains better awareness of the potential stickiness of multiple teams and its impact on other coaches, and works harder to avoid issues in the future.

the wrong approach IMO is to report the issue to seble without even having a conversation - i mean, if its clear cut abuse, or a repeat issue, that's different. i also don't know how this situation is shaking out, but i'm sort of basing this on the first suggestion to just go ahead and report it - what was known at that time - which was very minimal. if it turns out bad, ok then so be it. but why not just talk to the guy and ask him to explain? it could end as a constructive experience, hearts and minds and all that, a win for fair play in the long run - while keeping all involved coaches in the game. worst case scenario coaches who could be perfectly good members of the community some day end up gone. if the guy takes no responsibility, and you feel you have to report it, then so be it.

tl;dr - dont be a narc when you might be able to accomplish more just talking to someone

Gil you need your own talk show.

“anyway, what would you have that coach do?”

Assuming it’s not a case of premeditated one-user, two-team collusion, I think FPGs still come in to play. If I’m CS, I’m sending a warning, advising a move out of D2 for one team to try to avoid this situation. And then depending on circumstances, because there could still be some mitigating circumstances we don’t know about, I’m probably erasing the effort double-user spent on the recruit.

Harm and benefit; impact not intent. Having 2 teams in a world, especially in a division, automatically puts you close to the FPGs, and you have to be aware of that if you’re going to go down that road. “What would you have me do?” is not really much of a dilemma.

the coach i was asking about was the coach with 2 teams, not what CS would do TO that coach.

also, i'm kinda trying to find the fair play guidelines because i haven't looked in a while and i don't recall anything that would clearly govern the two team coaches actions, but i am sort of assuming at least some general stuff applies. however, i have not been successful. what the heck? where are those things.

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/14/2020 9:36:00 PM (view original):
the coach i was asking about was the coach with 2 teams, not what CS would do TO that coach.

also, i'm kinda trying to find the fair play guidelines because i haven't looked in a while and i don't recall anything that would clearly govern the two team coaches actions, but i am sort of assuming at least some general stuff applies. however, i have not been successful. what the heck? where are those things.

Terms of Use at the bottom of the page.

I’m just answering the question what I would have the coach do, as if I had the power to decide what he should do, ie if I was CS/seble. I would tell them to move (divisions), otherwise be prepared to handicap themselves every season.