Posted by Jitter_Thug on 12/22/2020 4:38:00 PM (view original):
Three questions for you guys. This is what the game says about double teams:

"If you choose to double in a man-to-man defense, your team will simply leave one player unguarded. In a zone, your team will slide into either a matchup zone, or a triangle and 2, depending on whether you are double-teaming 1 or 2 players."

1. Are man and zone equal as far as the effectiveness of the double team function?
2. Does the "if leading scorer" option refer to the leading scorer on the court, or the leading scorer on the team?
3. Theoretically, could the matchup zone be ran as a base defense? If you selected "if leading scorer" for every player, you would be in a matchup zone the entire game right? Maybe matchup zone is better than regular zone?

Thoughts?

1. Defer to another coach since I never play zone D but my assumption would be no they are not perfectly equal but which one is more effective will vary per matchup
2. It refers to the leading scorer on the court at the time
3. I've never run zone but for part 1, yes, I'd guess if you set everyone to if leading scorer, that would essentially make matchup zone your base defense. As to whether that's better than regular zone? My guess is that's subjective depending on the talent on your team and the talent on your opponent's team

Interesting notes on double teams I'd never known before - assuming these are still in the engine:
If you double team 3 or more players on the court at the same time, the engine won't double team anyone
You won't be able to execute a double team successfully on every defensive possession

Thanks for the answer to the second question sol.

I'll explain my thinking a little more about the open shooter question.

Cub and Craig are saying if a team's main two scorers are shooters, they like to double both of them and then set their defense at -4. Lets say shooter A is the pg, and shooter B is the sg.

Pg brings the ball up the court and draws the double team. As a result, someone on the court is left open. If the player left open is the sg, we have a problem and the double team has backfired. This is my fear of that strategy, hopefully that makes more sense now.

Posted by sol_phenom3 on 12/22/2020 5:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jitter_Thug on 12/22/2020 4:38:00 PM (view original):
Three questions for you guys. This is what the game says about double teams:

"If you choose to double in a man-to-man defense, your team will simply leave one player unguarded. In a zone, your team will slide into either a matchup zone, or a triangle and 2, depending on whether you are double-teaming 1 or 2 players."

1. Are man and zone equal as far as the effectiveness of the double team function?
2. Does the "if leading scorer" option refer to the leading scorer on the court, or the leading scorer on the team?
3. Theoretically, could the matchup zone be ran as a base defense? If you selected "if leading scorer" for every player, you would be in a matchup zone the entire game right? Maybe matchup zone is better than regular zone?

Thoughts?

1. Defer to another coach since I never play zone D but my assumption would be no they are not perfectly equal but which one is more effective will vary per matchup
2. It refers to the leading scorer on the court at the time
3. I've never run zone but for part 1, yes, I'd guess if you set everyone to if leading scorer, that would essentially make matchup zone your base defense. As to whether that's better than regular zone? My guess is that's subjective depending on the talent on your team and the talent on your opponent's team

Interesting notes on double teams I'd never known before - assuming these are still in the engine:
If you double team 3 or more players on the court at the same time, the engine won't double team anyone
You won't be able to execute a double team successfully on every defensive possession

If you want to DT every player, you play FCP.

Some things to keep in mind - the doubleteam is not always effective on a given play. Its success depends a lot on the quality and IQ of the defenders involved, not to mention the guy you’re trying to double. With poor defenders involved, a lot of times, you won’t even see it mentioned in the PBP on a given play. You’ll be like “I know I had clicked to always double Don Johnson” but you get to the end of the game and he’s gone 8-11 on you, and it’s because he was lined up against a poor defender, and whoever the sim was trying to bring over on him wasn’t helping much. That’s a way to think about it anyway. You can’t control who “helps” on the doubleteam of course, and I’m not sure the sim even cares. It’s functionally more about the probability of it affecting the play, and how. So in general, there’s still an element of “the better the defense, the more effective it is” working here.

I don’t really like the notion of doubling guys who are extra efficient, but not among the leading scorers, unless you have good reason to believe your opponent will try to utilize them more against you. The reason is that usage is sort of baked into how the DT affects your opponent, and efficiency in this game is often about usage as much as quality. What that means is that you can’t rely on raw stats to tell you how efficient a guy is going to be in the face of a doubleteam, or when his usage is forced up or down, if that makes sense. Some guys look more efficient than they would otherwise be, if they had less conscientious coaches who were less concerned about efficiency. Likewise, some excellent scorers look inefficient, because they are their team’s only good option, and are getting heavy distribution (sometimes in the face of DTs and lockdown guards and whatever else a human coach might throw at them). Doubling that excellent scorer with questionable efficiency can still be a decent idea, in certain cases. In the end, what really matters is how good the player is, and how your opponent plans on utilizing him against you.

Posted by Jitter_Thug on 12/22/2020 5:55:00 PM (view original):
Thanks for the answer to the second question sol.

I'll explain my thinking a little more about the open shooter question.

Cub and Craig are saying if a team's main two scorers are shooters, they like to double both of them and then set their defense at -4. Lets say shooter A is the pg, and shooter B is the sg.

Pg brings the ball up the court and draws the double team. As a result, someone on the court is left open. If the player left open is the sg, we have a problem and the double team has backfired. This is my fear of that strategy, hopefully that makes more sense now.

I think knowing how the code works might help answer our questions. This is an educated guess, but still a guess. I don't know if the sim designates a specific player that is left open. I believe there is just one big formula and the sim spits out a result of each play based on your settings and RNG. An example of a possession might look something like:

1. Based on inputs (player attributes, off/def sets, user settings), determine chance of turnover (10% chance) or shot attempt (90% chance). RNG.
2. If turnover, determine which player turned ball over (40% chance of PG adjusted by PG's bh/pass, 25% of SG adjusted by SG bh/pass, etc). RNG.
3. If shot attempt, determine who shot the ball (determined by several inputs such as def +/-, offensive distro, DT, etc). RNG. Calculate chance of miss/make. RNG.
4. If miss, determine who rebounds.
5. Change possession. Adjust clock. Etc.

In the case of a double team, the DT'd player would probably be adjusted from a 20% chance of shooting to a 10% chance. All other players might get a slight boost of 2-3%. If you DT 2 players, then they would both be reduced by 8% and the remaining 3 players would still get that 2-3% boost. Of course, I don't know the exact numbers, but I would think it current system is similar to this. I guess there could be something in the code that states if a PG is doubled, then the SG would be the "open" man and get increased % chance of being the shooter, but I kinda doubt it.

One thing I've learned, and it ties into the thought of a C with say 90 PER..... this is a basketball game, and a numbers game. But those numbers come first. I don't really believe in floor spacing in HD. And I'll explain.

with a 100 PER Center, my thought was, "awesome, he'll draw the defender out from the paint since he's shooting 3s, and create driving lanes". When really it doesn't work like that. The C is just a good shooter who now happens to shoot 3s. When it comes to double teams, sure it may be coded in like.... "if PG is doubled, he gets minor negative effects. And the other players will get an even smaller minor positive effects". What those effects are, we dont know.

But if you double two guards and run -4, the other 3 players aren't "more open" than they would be if you ran a -2. They may get whatever positive effects the double teams create. But I don't think the "doubles and -4" makes it worse. If that makes sense.

Edit..... I guess i should read ALL posts before I write. Miltney wrote the exact same thing. Only with intelligent words instead of my babble

Yeah for sure, I see what you mean about the -4 vs -2 not making a difference. So it does make sense to play -4 if doubling both shooters, I see your point there.

I'm more focused on the doubling both shooters part. I understand that the text provided is just the makeup on top of the rng trees like you guys have been saying. So when the game says a player will be left open, I interpret that as the open player has a higher chance to make a shot. It can be seen in the play by play when it happens: " Dennis Stephan hits the wide open jumpshot from just outside the lane". His chances of making that shot were higher because he was wide open. Obviously there are multiple factors involved as to why or how he got wide open, but taking a wide open shot increases his chances of making it. So again, my fear of doubling two shooters to prevent damage from downtown is that it can backfire and now one of those two shooters will be getting some wide open shots. I was just curious about that aspect of the strategy. Sounds like doubling both shooters helps more than hurts though so its all good. Not worried about it anymore.

How about this matchup zone base defense thought? If you play zone and set every opponent player to "double if leading scorer" then you will be in a matchup zone the entire game. Does anyone have information on how the matchup zone works? Could this be a new defensive style to utilize and recruit for?

Jitter Thug, I’m not sure whether I do “the trick” as the other coaches do. I double both guards using the if leading scorer feature. That way only one player is ever doubled. That feature doubleteams if that player is the leading scorer on the court. If that switches to the other guard, the dt switches.

Posted by craigaltonw on 12/23/2020 8:15:00 PM (view original):
Jitter Thug, I’m not sure whether I do “the trick” as the other coaches do. I double both guards using the if leading scorer feature. That way only one player is ever doubled. That feature doubleteams if that player is the leading scorer on the court. If that switches to the other guard, the dt switches.

Right, but the issue is still that the double team could be coming from the the 2nd shooter’s defender. Leaving the 2nd shooter wide open.

Jitter I hear you. I usually never doubleteam unless that second player is somebody I'm really not scared of. I will definitely doubleteam if the two shooters on the other team sub-in for each other and are rarely on the court together.

One caveat, I also don't doubleteam if the player in question is an exceptional passer. Usually this ends up in me not doubling anyone, or sometimes doubling the best big man and playing a + defense.

I've run double teams all the time on a player with my Dayton/Wooden team this season but have yet to see any reference to double-teaming in the Play by play? Is it working? I would think it would show up sometime each game? Thanks.

Posted by cp49 on 1/20/2021 6:01:00 AM (view original):
I've run double teams all the time on a player with my Dayton/Wooden team this season but have yet to see any reference to double-teaming in the Play by play? Is it working? I would think it would show up sometime each game? Thanks.

Double teams don't always show up in the PBP. You are running man, so the function would be working even without showing up in the PBP.

Posted by cp49 on 1/20/2021 6:01:00 AM (view original):
I've run double teams all the time on a player with my Dayton/Wooden team this season but have yet to see any reference to double-teaming in the Play by play? Is it working? I would think it would show up sometime each game? Thanks.

It normally shows up 5 or 6 times per game in the pbp.

Are you double teaming 'Always' or 'If leading Scorer'? Are you making sure not to doubleteam 3 (or more) people? It does not work if more than 2 players are set to double teamed at the same time.

Are you playing press .. Can not double team playing press.

Posted by Jitter_Thug on 12/22/2020 5:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 12/22/2020 5:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jitter_Thug on 12/22/2020 4:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 12/22/2020 11:43:00 AM (view original):
I'm a huge proponent of doubling multiple guys, and it usually works pretty well. Craig is completely right, if a team only has 2 shooters then doubling them and going -4 can be a super strong strategy (especially as a big underdog).

If you double team both shooters, isn't there the fear that this will leave the other shooter wide open against a -4 defense?

In a real basketball game on a real court.. Or in this simulated and completely calculated computer simulation?

Of course you can't double team 2 players at the same time with 4 of your players in real life. You can certainly try to rotate a helper on two players. In real life.. If one of them gets the ball.

But in this simulation, it is just a setting that is on or off. If on, do this, if off do this. You can do 2 at one time. Doing 2 or 1 does likely not make OTHER players be 'open'. You probably just have certain items applied to the shooter if the double team switch is set.

I'm kinda sorry to be rude but your entire answer was a fail.

Obviously talking about HD here, like very obviously...

The reason I believe it leaves a player open is because that is what the game says:

"If you choose to double in a man-to-man defense, your team will simply leave one player unguarded."

This is a computer game .. there are no real players to be open. Therefore there is only an open player if the game does a calculation whereby it deems a player to be 'unguarded' or open.

If the game DOES do that calculation .. how many times does it do it (the double teamed player is not double teamed every shot .. so the open player likely does not happen every shot either)? How does it do it? When does it do it?

How much does normal defense being played actually impact the dice roll to miss the shot in the first place? How much does it change if the guy who is double teamed shoots? How much does the defense 'Positioning' number being played impacted an 'open' player compared to a non open player.

I am pretty sure the game does not calculate every pass, etc. There is no PG passes to SF passes to PF passes to double teamed C. There is a play outcome calculated .. then they give the assist (if any) or rebound (if any). Each individual ball touch is not calculated (if i understand the mechanics correctly).