Posted by gillispie1 on 1/16/2021 8:41:00 PM (view original):
i feel like this discussion also furthers the argument that d3 is out of whack for new coaches. recruiting d1 players out of d3 just seems way too complicated for a new coach, i think new coaches need to be able to get further in the first couple months than the game currently allows. it just seems so much simpler to me to think of walking in as a new coach and recruiting d3 players from the d3 pool, segmented from the d1/d2 schools. adjustments would need to be made to make that viable, like buffing the d3 pool - and an added benefit would be that the rookie d3 recruiting scheme would be more similar to d1 recruiting (hit the ground running), which should help to make it easier for new coaches to transition to d1.

I agree with this completely. If the first step as a new coach is NOT talking with a vet, there's no way to know that you can successfully scout and recruit players from the the D1 and D2 pools. And by not doing that, you're steering toward mediocrity at best.

Posted by topdogggbm on 1/17/2021 8:49:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/16/2021 8:41:00 PM (view original):
i feel like this discussion also furthers the argument that d3 is out of whack for new coaches. recruiting d1 players out of d3 just seems way too complicated for a new coach, i think new coaches need to be able to get further in the first couple months than the game currently allows. it just seems so much simpler to me to think of walking in as a new coach and recruiting d3 players from the d3 pool, segmented from the d1/d2 schools. adjustments would need to be made to make that viable, like buffing the d3 pool - and an added benefit would be that the rookie d3 recruiting scheme would be more similar to d1 recruiting (hit the ground running), which should help to make it easier for new coaches to transition to d1.

I agree with this completely. If the first step as a new coach is NOT talking with a vet, there's no way to know that you can successfully scout and recruit players from the the D1 and D2 pools. And by not doing that, you're steering toward mediocrity at best.

The concept of making scouting and recruiting simpler for the new player is good. But we want to do that without disrupting the balance of gameplay. They could simplify D3 overall like GD did, and have it be a basic version of the game, but I think we’d all have to accept that will probably reduce long term appeal for most folks and drive population in most worlds down further at that level. Not a terrible thing, if it’s improving overall retention and the higher divisions are seeing increases, but that’s a big, long term gamble, and I doubt powers that be have an appetite for that kind of thing, given how GD turned out.

Simply “buffing” the D3 pool is a little better than capping the pools and removing pull downs, but there is still the unintended consequence here of making all the teams around the new players better as well. We can’t really just give new players a better player pool to themselves, without sims and vets also swimming in it. So a new player may have an easier time fielding a higher OVR team recruited from the D2 pool, but it will be facing generally stronger sims in conference with those same “buffed” recruits.

Recruiting is not just evaluating talent and then selecting the best; that’s drafting, and there are other games for that experience. Recruiting is about finding the best fits for your program, and then trying to bring that talent in. The system that exists is a good, if complex, one, if you have the right frame of mind going in. The thing it lacks is good communication and messaging for new players, giving them the right frames of mind to go in with. A good tutorial, or “did you know” mode to help a coach in their first season at D3 would be great. An email from the AD explaining how to use the division drop downs, or the advanced search filters, and maybe another one advising them to seek out a mentor, and linking to the mentor thread.

I don’t think a big structural change is advisable or necessary, but if something big was going to be done to the scouting model, I’d like to see the pool divisions eliminated entirely. No more red lights; players signing time preferences would all be fluid depending on prestige of the programs chasing them (#45 pg in the country would be early for Kansas, EOP1 for Marquette, whenever for Alcorn St, late for Grand Canyon, last 24 hours for Case Western). Some % of players would still want to wait until RS2 to see who has early entry effort to spend though. I would adjust the camp process to give users more control then over the quality/quantity of players in the camp. Do you want an elite AAU camp, drawing from the top talent pools in the region? It will be costly, and if you’re a D2 or D3 school, a poor use of resources. Better in that case to use a less prestigious D level camp, drawing from the current D2/3 pools. That’s how I would start to approach the scouting $ exchange in a division-less system.

I really don't see a need allowing recruiting above your division. I mean, sure it is fun, but it would be just as much fun to not do at all.

It would take 4 seasons to settle out, then all teams would be pulling from the same pool. The coaches who can best evaluate talent will still get the best players at all levels.

I'm sorry, but the number of Div1 talent who will play for a Div2 team .. certainly if a Div1 school offers, is 0.

Don't get me wrong .. i recruit above my level and knock off Div1 SIMAI teams from D2 .. you have to to compete. but you should not be able to.

I like it. In 2.0 there were pull downs which were a huge part of recruiting strategy. I think it’s good for the game. However, I think many recruiting grievances could be solved allowing to scout only one division up.

D3 can scout projected D3 and D2 recruits. D2 can scout projected D1 and D2. This should address some coaches’ grievances about Sim teams not being competitive enough.

Posted by hughesjr on 1/18/2021 9:32:00 PM (view original):
I really don't see a need allowing recruiting above your division. I mean, sure it is fun, but it would be just as much fun to not do at all.

It would take 4 seasons to settle out, then all teams would be pulling from the same pool. The coaches who can best evaluate talent will still get the best players at all levels.

I'm sorry, but the number of Div1 talent who will play for a Div2 team .. certainly if a Div1 school offers, is 0.

Don't get me wrong .. i recruit above my level and knock off Div1 SIMAI teams from D2 .. you have to to compete. but you should not be able to.

The separate pools are silly constructs, and shouldn’t exist in the first place, that’s the real problem. There’s no actual separation between D1 and D2 talent, there are just basketball players, and teams who recruit them. If a D1 team wants a player, and convinces him to play for them, he’s a D1 player. If D2 a team makes a better pitch for whatever reason, and he ends up BMOC at a D2 school, he’s a D2 player.

I agree, Shoe. Maybe take the pools away entirely!

As it is now, each recruit carries a letter grade prior to discovering an overall rating. If scouting filters are changed to “scout A’s “scout B’s”, etc. That could be a big fix to the problem. Maybe don’t allow D3 to scout A’s so that new players don’t come in wasting their budget on recruits that are out of reach.

The 1-5 star ratings can still apply to recruits with B+ grades and above. Do you think that could work?

Posted by shoe3 on 1/19/2021 1:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 1/18/2021 9:32:00 PM (view original):
I really don't see a need allowing recruiting above your division. I mean, sure it is fun, but it would be just as much fun to not do at all.

It would take 4 seasons to settle out, then all teams would be pulling from the same pool. The coaches who can best evaluate talent will still get the best players at all levels.

I'm sorry, but the number of Div1 talent who will play for a Div2 team .. certainly if a Div1 school offers, is 0.

Don't get me wrong .. i recruit above my level and knock off Div1 SIMAI teams from D2 .. you have to to compete. but you should not be able to.

The separate pools are silly constructs, and shouldn’t exist in the first place, that’s the real problem. There’s no actual separation between D1 and D2 talent, there are just basketball players, and teams who recruit them. If a D1 team wants a player, and convinces him to play for them, he’s a D1 player. If D2 a team makes a better pitch for whatever reason, and he ends up BMOC at a D2 school, he’s a D2 player.

That would be OK .. If you could git rid of the waiting until the last turn or the last recruiting session (unless that is the recruits listed preference), then that would be fine by me.

I don't mind listing recruits as Projected D1, D2, D3 with no restrictions except maybe they wait until close to the end of their preference signing listed. But not, Moderate only until send session or last turn.

Posted by hughesjr on 1/19/2021 8:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 1/19/2021 1:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 1/18/2021 9:32:00 PM (view original):
I really don't see a need allowing recruiting above your division. I mean, sure it is fun, but it would be just as much fun to not do at all.

It would take 4 seasons to settle out, then all teams would be pulling from the same pool. The coaches who can best evaluate talent will still get the best players at all levels.

I'm sorry, but the number of Div1 talent who will play for a Div2 team .. certainly if a Div1 school offers, is 0.

Don't get me wrong .. i recruit above my level and knock off Div1 SIMAI teams from D2 .. you have to to compete. but you should not be able to.

The separate pools are silly constructs, and shouldn’t exist in the first place, that’s the real problem. There’s no actual separation between D1 and D2 talent, there are just basketball players, and teams who recruit them. If a D1 team wants a player, and convinces him to play for them, he’s a D1 player. If D2 a team makes a better pitch for whatever reason, and he ends up BMOC at a D2 school, he’s a D2 player.

That would be OK .. If you could git rid of the waiting until the last turn or the last recruiting session (unless that is the recruits listed preference), then that would be fine by me.

I don't mind listing recruits as Projected D1, D2, D3 with no restrictions except maybe they wait until close to the end of their preference signing listed. But not, Moderate only until send session or last turn.

I truly understand your argument. I really do. It's a topic that has a lot of coaches on different sides, some like it, some don't.

But if you really think about it hard..... everything that you're using as examples, is factored into the way recruiting is now. For example you mentioned you'd be ok with high talented D1 type of players signing with a D2 team if they weren't wanted by a D1 school. Well that's exactly what happens now as it unfolds..... the recruit has a signing preference. Say it's early. Well he wants to sign as soon as possible. But there's no D1 schools interested. So here comes D2 coach with heavy effort.

The D2 investing heavily will show as moderate. But if there's no other competition, the D2 is actually very high. Since there's always "a" school leading at very high. The moderate cap goes back to what you mentioned...... no D1 schools want him. So the player is actually holding out and waiting on offers from a D1 school. If they never come, then the player signs with D2 after the season plays out (RS2). He was more than willing to sign with a D1 but had no interest, and his plans were to be signed by now. So he is forced to settle.

Obviously I'm aware that you understand all that. But my point is, if you think deeply about it, and the timing of things, the reason ANY elite players (besides late signing preference players) end up in D2/D3 it's because of D1 coaches choosing not to target them.

So we can't really blame the separate pools for that. We can't blame it on the effort of D2/D3 coaches being too strong. We can't blame any other reason. The fault lies in the hands of the D1 coaches that fail to target these players. And if no one at D1 wants the player enough to go after him, then it really doesn't matter what pool they came from whether it's D1 pool, D3 pool, or one giant pool. (I WILL add that there is also blame on population. If we had more human coaches in D1, it would balance itself out. But we don't)

Posted by topdogggbm on 1/20/2021 1:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 1/19/2021 8:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 1/19/2021 1:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 1/18/2021 9:32:00 PM (view original):
I really don't see a need allowing recruiting above your division. I mean, sure it is fun, but it would be just as much fun to not do at all.

It would take 4 seasons to settle out, then all teams would be pulling from the same pool. The coaches who can best evaluate talent will still get the best players at all levels.

I'm sorry, but the number of Div1 talent who will play for a Div2 team .. certainly if a Div1 school offers, is 0.

Don't get me wrong .. i recruit above my level and knock off Div1 SIMAI teams from D2 .. you have to to compete. but you should not be able to.

The separate pools are silly constructs, and shouldn’t exist in the first place, that’s the real problem. There’s no actual separation between D1 and D2 talent, there are just basketball players, and teams who recruit them. If a D1 team wants a player, and convinces him to play for them, he’s a D1 player. If D2 a team makes a better pitch for whatever reason, and he ends up BMOC at a D2 school, he’s a D2 player.

That would be OK .. If you could git rid of the waiting until the last turn or the last recruiting session (unless that is the recruits listed preference), then that would be fine by me.

I don't mind listing recruits as Projected D1, D2, D3 with no restrictions except maybe they wait until close to the end of their preference signing listed. But not, Moderate only until send session or last turn.

I truly understand your argument. I really do. It's a topic that has a lot of coaches on different sides, some like it, some don't.

But if you really think about it hard..... everything that you're using as examples, is factored into the way recruiting is now. For example you mentioned you'd be ok with high talented D1 type of players signing with a D2 team if they weren't wanted by a D1 school. Well that's exactly what happens now as it unfolds..... the recruit has a signing preference. Say it's early. Well he wants to sign as soon as possible. But there's no D1 schools interested. So here comes D2 coach with heavy effort.

The D2 investing heavily will show as moderate. But if there's no other competition, the D2 is actually very high. Since there's always "a" school leading at very high. The moderate cap goes back to what you mentioned...... no D1 schools want him. So the player is actually holding out and waiting on offers from a D1 school. If they never come, then the player signs with D2 after the season plays out (RS2). He was more than willing to sign with a D1 but had no interest, and his plans were to be signed by now. So he is forced to settle.

Obviously I'm aware that you understand all that. But my point is, if you think deeply about it, and the timing of things, the reason ANY elite players (besides late signing preference players) end up in D2/D3 it's because of D1 coaches choosing not to target them.

So we can't really blame the separate pools for that. We can't blame it on the effort of D2/D3 coaches being too strong. We can't blame any other reason. The fault lies in the hands of the D1 coaches that fail to target these players. And if no one at D1 wants the player enough to go after him, then it really doesn't matter what pool they came from whether it's D1 pool, D3 pool, or one giant pool. (I WILL add that there is also blame on population. If we had more human coaches in D1, it would balance itself out. But we don't)

Well .. except, it is WAY TO EASY for a Div2 or Div3 team to knock off a SIM team one level above.