I also like my college men to have lots of stamina.

Here’s what I’ve found mind you with a FB/Press. Some of it might be obvious.

- Stamina is king as everyone has said. Solid guy with 95 STA is better than a blue chip who maxes at 75 STA. 80 (maxed) is kind of my target minimum.
- Running 9 deep is impossible. 10 deep you can tread water with a NT berth. 11 and ideally 12 is what you want. Fairly fresh everyone.
- I like to have at least 1-2 high rebounding guys but your starting 4/backup 5s can go as low as 30 REB as long as they’re high ATH/STA.
- Need to land 1-2 guys every recruiting session for “free” so you can still grab some studs and have backup plans in case you lose rolls. Guys with high ATH/SPD/STA and zero other skills are super valuable.
- Stagger your depth chart. For example your backup 1 is your 3rd string 2 is your 4th string 3 etc. I’ve never analyzed this too closely but I assume it helps when guys get tired/in foul trouble.
- Almost always go + defense. Almost always go fast tempo if you’re 11-12 deep.

I like most of the above post, but not the last line about + defense. To me, that has to do with the opponent you're facing each night. I run a LOT more - defense than I do + defense. Probably like 70/30 if I had to throw a random number at it. I generally stay between +2 and -5 and its rare I play +3/4/5 unless it's an extreme need. With ANY sets.


Main thing I actually came here to add to the topic, is that BH is extremely valuable in FB. And it seems that PAS is not very important at all except maybe in your PG position. That kinda goes against what fastbreak represents in our mind. But I've had terrible passing teams on a regular basis that do very well with fastbreak offense

I have nothing but anecdotal evidence, but I'm a firm believer in + defense for the press. When I first came back to HD after 3.0, I exclusively ran flex/press. I wasn't as "into" the game yet with spreadsheets and all that, but after hundreds of games, I noticed that the +2 was winning me games that I shouldn't be winning. Maybe it's the way I built my teams (not a ton of athleticism or rebounding), but it was creating more TO's which were necessary due to the rebounding deficit.

I'm just now getting back to the flex/press and already feeling the power of +2. If you look at my Oklahoma team in Crum, I tried going with the recommended defensive position, which led to a lot of -3 and -2. I was barely beating sims teams, and I lost to 2 of them. I said "screw it", and tried the +2 again, and suddenly I'm beating those same sims by 20 points each night. That team has 3 players with 50 or less athleticism.

I'll keep track of the data for the next few seasons. I want to know if going with + defense increases TO's for the opposing team and decreases fouling for my own team. I'm not sure about the fouling, but I do believe that it creates more TO's.

Posted by mlitney on 10/15/2021 9:31:00 AM (view original):
I have nothing but anecdotal evidence, but I'm a firm believer in + defense for the press. When I first came back to HD after 3.0, I exclusively ran flex/press. I wasn't as "into" the game yet with spreadsheets and all that, but after hundreds of games, I noticed that the +2 was winning me games that I shouldn't be winning. Maybe it's the way I built my teams (not a ton of athleticism or rebounding), but it was creating more TO's which were necessary due to the rebounding deficit.

I'm just now getting back to the flex/press and already feeling the power of +2. If you look at my Oklahoma team in Crum, I tried going with the recommended defensive position, which led to a lot of -3 and -2. I was barely beating sims teams, and I lost to 2 of them. I said "screw it", and tried the +2 again, and suddenly I'm beating those same sims by 20 points each night. That team has 3 players with 50 or less athleticism.

I'll keep track of the data for the next few seasons. I want to know if going with + defense increases TO's for the opposing team and decreases fouling for my own team. I'm not sure about the fouling, but I do believe that it creates more TO's.

I'm the opposite. I go heavy minus even with press if the situation calls for it. I use -5 with press a decent amount of time.

i use both +/- a lot in press. when the favorite i am a bit more likely to be playing +, because countering the opponent 3pt shooting is generally a priority. for a lot of really good press teams i will consider +1 roughly the baseline. but when i am trying to punch up i will cheat - more often than not. both work quite well.

the only thing i really took exception to was the fast pace comment. i can't stand fast pace in press. its more ok the worse your team is but in general uptempo press gets you more blowouts against weaker opponents but you end up losing more close games. for my best press teams i run normal tempo 100% of the time. at lower levels of competition especially in d1, like outside the top 10-15 teams, you see a lot more oddly shapen teams where uptempo might make some sense, so its only top level where i loudly object. i think what happens is folks mis-attribute their successful uptempo press or fb/press teams to the uptempo rather than the underlying press or fb/pr, or just don't pay enough attention to uptempo against the toughest opponents, where it is at its worst. baums did just win 2 quite impressive fb/pr titles and i think he ran mostly uptempo with those, so its not like you can't win with it. a great uptempo press team is still better than great non-press teams in most cases, its just that well built normal tempo press teams are the absolute top of the pile.

Like I said, anecdotal and a very small sample size, but here are the first 12 games of the season...

Game / Def Positioning / TO's Created
Game 1 / -2 / 17
Game 2 / -3 / 14
Game 3 / -2 / 19
Game 4 / -3 / 23
Game 5 / -2 / 15
Game 6 / +2 / 20
Game 7 / +2 / 20
Game 8 / +2 / 23
Game 9 / +2 / 21
Game 10 / +2 / 23
Game 11 / +2 / 19
Game 12 / +3 / 15

The last 2 games were against good human teams while the first 10 were against sims, but I think there's enough data to warrant a deeper dive. Does going + put more pressure on the opposing guards and create more TO's? It might just depend on the way your team is built. Like I said, my team is going to lose the rebounding battle every game, so I need to make up those possessions elsewhere. Maybe Benis likes to build a strong rebounding team so going - helps to accentuate that advantage.

I generally default to +1 with FB/P, and move up or down a couple from there. I’d be more inclined to go heavier negative sometimes if I could slow down (so not FB), but I generally carry only 4-5 rebounders max (sometimes only 3 good ones) so I don’t want to mess with frontcourt foul trouble.

On tempo, I suppose gil and I could rehash the debate we’ve had multiple times, but I’m not going to get into it past this post. I’ll just say I agree with Baums_away, I used the style years ago at D2 with Abilene Christian, it worked great, Baums and Kimball (to name a couple) are having great success with it at D1 now, and I’m coming back to it. If the team has enough stamina and balance to stay blue or better (or at least well ahead of the opponent), the speed and ball handling to avoid turnovers, and the ath/defense and IQ to avoid foul trouble, uptempo is a great choice for a FB/press team. Maximize possessions, if you have the team to do it.

Posted by mlitney on 10/15/2021 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Like I said, anecdotal and a very small sample size, but here are the first 12 games of the season...

Game / Def Positioning / TO's Created
Game 1 / -2 / 17
Game 2 / -3 / 14
Game 3 / -2 / 19
Game 4 / -3 / 23
Game 5 / -2 / 15
Game 6 / +2 / 20
Game 7 / +2 / 20
Game 8 / +2 / 23
Game 9 / +2 / 21
Game 10 / +2 / 23
Game 11 / +2 / 19
Game 12 / +3 / 15

The last 2 games were against good human teams while the first 10 were against sims, but I think there's enough data to warrant a deeper dive. Does going + put more pressure on the opposing guards and create more TO's? It might just depend on the way your team is built. Like I said, my team is going to lose the rebounding battle every game, so I need to make up those possessions elsewhere. Maybe Benis likes to build a strong rebounding team so going - helps to accentuate that advantage.

going + creates more turnovers, that is one of the main benefits of going +. reducing long shot efficiency (3s, long 2s), creating turnovers, and avoiding the slight foul hit from - are pretty much the list.

Funny Mlitney, that you say that about the +2 because that is my set it and forget defense with the press. Come the NT I'll make some slight adjustments. Somewhere here I read that it was fact that + defenses increase turnovers and decrease fouls so why would you not.

As far as tempo - this is my line of thinking. Well built press teams will have at least a slight depth/stamina advantage over just about every other team out there and really good press teams will have a huge advantage over every other team. Going uptempo puts more weight into stamina and depth being the deciding factors in the game as opposed to running normal which increases the odds of you winning. Occasionally uptempo might put you into more foul trouble leading to the "death spiral" but I think that's much more likely to happen to your opponent than you.

If the other team matches my 11/12 deep and is within a few points on stamina then I'll probably run normal.

Posted by shoe3 on 10/15/2021 11:37:00 AM (view original):
I generally default to +1 with FB/P, and move up or down a couple from there. I’d be more inclined to go heavier negative sometimes if I could slow down (so not FB), but I generally carry only 4-5 rebounders max (sometimes only 3 good ones) so I don’t want to mess with frontcourt foul trouble.

On tempo, I suppose gil and I could rehash the debate we’ve had multiple times, but I’m not going to get into it past this post. I’ll just say I agree with Baums_away, I used the style years ago at D2 with Abilene Christian, it worked great, Baums and Kimball (to name a couple) are having great success with it at D1 now, and I’m coming back to it. If the team has enough stamina and balance to stay blue or better (or at least well ahead of the opponent), the speed and ball handling to avoid turnovers, and the ath/defense and IQ to avoid foul trouble, uptempo is a great choice for a FB/press team. Maximize possessions, if you have the team to do it.

i'll just say 2 things:

1) i think the OP was mostly asking about straight press (not fb/pr), although i generally maintain a similar posture re: uptempo press and uptempo fb/pr. the main difference is even a normal fb/pr is somewhat of a gimmick set (no negative connotation intended) based on depth and stamina. eschewing normal team building principles in the fb/fcp in favor of an uptempo stamina build is definitely more appropriate than doing so in straight press. for a lot of folks, that is the whole point of fb/fcp, and that is a perfectly reasonable way to get started with fb/fcp, how most folks get started, even if i don't think its the way to finish.

2) for someone new to press, adjusting to the higher depth requirements is usually a significant challenge, and i would generally suggest someone new to press goes with a straight press over fb/fcp where you can run slowdown to better survive those 10-man-deep teams and such. but also because i feel like it gives the opportunity to adjust to the press alone. fb/fcp is really a lot different, perhaps as different as motion/press and motion/man or something, so mostly what i am trying to say is, to someone new to press - don't look at fb/fcp and press guidance as interchangeable. there's overlap but pretty different systems overall. also i am a big fan of fb - fb used to get **** on a lot and i sort of think i played a decently big part in changing that. but i absolutely hated it at my first school, it really makes learning the game or new systems harder. so i generally hold fb in high regard but recommend newer coaches avoid it like the plague. and similarly i wouldn't experiment with a new defense, with fb, i would start with a 'regular' offense and then add fb in after. 1 step at a time if you will.

Posted by mlitney on 10/15/2021 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Like I said, anecdotal and a very small sample size, but here are the first 12 games of the season...

Game / Def Positioning / TO's Created
Game 1 / -2 / 17
Game 2 / -3 / 14
Game 3 / -2 / 19
Game 4 / -3 / 23
Game 5 / -2 / 15
Game 6 / +2 / 20
Game 7 / +2 / 20
Game 8 / +2 / 23
Game 9 / +2 / 21
Game 10 / +2 / 23
Game 11 / +2 / 19
Game 12 / +3 / 15

The last 2 games were against good human teams while the first 10 were against sims, but I think there's enough data to warrant a deeper dive. Does going + put more pressure on the opposing guards and create more TO's? It might just depend on the way your team is built. Like I said, my team is going to lose the rebounding battle every game, so I need to make up those possessions elsewhere. Maybe Benis likes to build a strong rebounding team so going - helps to accentuate that advantage.

You should do TO% which is turnover per possession. Otherwise you don't know if this increase or decrease in turnovers is influenced by tempo.

And no, I actually usually have terrible rebounding on my press teams.

Posted by Benis on 10/15/2021 12:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mlitney on 10/15/2021 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Like I said, anecdotal and a very small sample size, but here are the first 12 games of the season...

Game / Def Positioning / TO's Created
Game 1 / -2 / 17
Game 2 / -3 / 14
Game 3 / -2 / 19
Game 4 / -3 / 23
Game 5 / -2 / 15
Game 6 / +2 / 20
Game 7 / +2 / 20
Game 8 / +2 / 23
Game 9 / +2 / 21
Game 10 / +2 / 23
Game 11 / +2 / 19
Game 12 / +3 / 15

The last 2 games were against good human teams while the first 10 were against sims, but I think there's enough data to warrant a deeper dive. Does going + put more pressure on the opposing guards and create more TO's? It might just depend on the way your team is built. Like I said, my team is going to lose the rebounding battle every game, so I need to make up those possessions elsewhere. Maybe Benis likes to build a strong rebounding team so going - helps to accentuate that advantage.

You should do TO% which is turnover per possession. Otherwise you don't know if this increase or decrease in turnovers is influenced by tempo.

And no, I actually usually have terrible rebounding on my press teams.

Going to make me do some work today huh?

Posted by Baums_away on 10/15/2021 12:10:00 PM (view original):
Funny Mlitney, that you say that about the +2 because that is my set it and forget defense with the press. Come the NT I'll make some slight adjustments. Somewhere here I read that it was fact that + defenses increase turnovers and decrease fouls so why would you not.

As far as tempo - this is my line of thinking. Well built press teams will have at least a slight depth/stamina advantage over just about every other team out there and really good press teams will have a huge advantage over every other team. Going uptempo puts more weight into stamina and depth being the deciding factors in the game as opposed to running normal which increases the odds of you winning. Occasionally uptempo might put you into more foul trouble leading to the "death spiral" but I think that's much more likely to happen to your opponent than you.

If the other team matches my 11/12 deep and is within a few points on stamina then I'll probably run normal.

Same here. Usually +2 is my baseline, set it and forget positioning. The scale is usually from 0 to +3 when gameplanning.

Posted by mlitney on 10/15/2021 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 10/15/2021 12:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mlitney on 10/15/2021 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Like I said, anecdotal and a very small sample size, but here are the first 12 games of the season...

Game / Def Positioning / TO's Created
Game 1 / -2 / 17
Game 2 / -3 / 14
Game 3 / -2 / 19
Game 4 / -3 / 23
Game 5 / -2 / 15
Game 6 / +2 / 20
Game 7 / +2 / 20
Game 8 / +2 / 23
Game 9 / +2 / 21
Game 10 / +2 / 23
Game 11 / +2 / 19
Game 12 / +3 / 15

The last 2 games were against good human teams while the first 10 were against sims, but I think there's enough data to warrant a deeper dive. Does going + put more pressure on the opposing guards and create more TO's? It might just depend on the way your team is built. Like I said, my team is going to lose the rebounding battle every game, so I need to make up those possessions elsewhere. Maybe Benis likes to build a strong rebounding team so going - helps to accentuate that advantage.

You should do TO% which is turnover per possession. Otherwise you don't know if this increase or decrease in turnovers is influenced by tempo.

And no, I actually usually have terrible rebounding on my press teams.

Going to make me do some work today huh?

I got a calculator in Google sheets if you want it