My point here is this type of thing is 100% guaranteed to happen eventually in leagues where losing is rewarded. So yeah, what the guy's doing is unethical and I'd be ****** off if I were in this league. So let's say he gets kicked out for cheating. Guess what? Someone else is going to do something similar a few seasons later, when they take a look at the next draft and see a bunch of hall of famers available. The incentives are too strong. Maybe it won't be anything this blatant, but like contrarian said it is very easy to deliberately hurt your team's chances of winning in a way that's not easily detectable.

I'm not saying you're wrong here, I'm saying there's nothing you can do to fix the problem, and to play in a league where losing is rewarded is to accept that stuff like this will happen. So you should either learn to live with it or join a league that doesn't reward losing, otherwise you will drive yourself insane.

Posted by 06gsp on 9/12/2022 12:14:00 PM (view original):
My point here is this type of thing is 100% guaranteed to happen eventually in leagues where losing is rewarded. So yeah, what the guy's doing is unethical and I'd be ****** off if I were in this league. So let's say he gets kicked out for cheating. Guess what? Someone else is going to do something similar a few seasons later, when they take a look at the next draft and see a bunch of hall of famers available. The incentives are too strong. Maybe it won't be anything this blatant, but like contrarian said it is very easy to deliberately hurt your team's chances of winning in a way that's not easily detectable.

I'm not saying you're wrong here, I'm saying there's nothing you can do to fix the problem, and to play in a league where losing is rewarded is to accept that stuff like this will happen. So you should either learn to live with it or join a league that doesn't reward losing, otherwise you will drive yourself insane.

I can tell you every other owner played it 100% honest even in the last 5 games myself included.

It is always no more then one guy in a league that cheats because 98% or so of us are really good guys who find cheating to be intolerable.
In this league several of the lottery potential teams were still winning at the end and they were all playing their best.

When it is always just one worm in the barrel it is so easy to condemn and punish it.

Oh I totally agree @laramiebob... and believe me word gets around...there are several (long time) WIS commissioners whose leagues I will never join.

My general advice to any commissioner is:
-- Be very clear in your league's rules. If anything can be construed to be ambiguous, it will be. Drives me crazy when prog commissioners post for new owners and say "standard progressive rules" or something like that. There is no such thing.
-- Be transparent in your thinking and decision making.
-- Act with complete integrity in how you run the league; everyone can make a mistake, but if you do, admit to it and fix it, even if that means penalizing your own team. I've administered penalties to my own team on multiple occasions when I have made a mistake. On at least two occasions, I have docked my own team a first round draft pick, not because of any cheating, but because I made a significant mistake in running the league draft.

Posted by laramiebob on 9/12/2022 12:21:00 PM (view original):
One of the worst things I've seen occur in my many years here is an "over the top" (power mad) Commissioner who errs then cheats and WIS admin won't do anything to intercede because He's "the commissioner" and they try and keep hands off HOW a commissioner "runs his league", likley because commissioners are the bread and butter of the whole shebang here, thus...............

Commissioners can (and DO) CHEAT.

There are (at least) 2 commissioners I won't even be in a League with, much less join one they run!!

This is so so true and really a crucial problem and I’m glad that you brought this up.
I can give you 2 examples - One guy who cannot spell took exception to some comments that I made that were not at all controversial - I was asking a question about something I did not understand.
He called it chatter and kicked me out of the league.
I am not joking - just like that.
And once I had 2 teams in a league and I got real sick from undiagnosed Diabetes and could not continue with several teams.
So in that league I had 2 teams one average team and one champion.
He kicked me out of the league because I told him a few days after the 120 game Mark and I informed him immediately I could not carry both teams and I told others that I could not play next season.

Another time I was temporarily suspended for saying about someone that he proved that apes could evolve from human beings.
There was a draft. I told him that someone would post my picks.
I was then booted out of the league after being in it for 22 seasons.

In none of these situations would Administration step in and said EXACTLY what you have quoted here.

I had a commissioner instigate a trade (with me and another owner) thru the League trade mechanism, make errors BOTH times, and then when called on it, (and I refused to undo a rightful trade) He (after the trade deadline) went into the rosters and REMOVED the player I traded for from my roster in the middle of a pennant chase!

I ended up losing a play-in game for the division (we had tied with like 104 wins or something like that)
He STILL runs the same Progressive and EVERY season 2, 3, or 4 owners leave and he has to find replacements.
In fact, he's looking for 2 more (I think) right this minute!! Was looking for 3 but someone else got snookered!!

WIS just refuses to do anything about him!!
Too many jerkoffs like that around here have run MANY former players off.
I nearly left myself!
And will IF'n WIS doesn't intercede the next time they should regarding any of my teams!!

I suspect the same jerkoff commissioner runs other Leagues under a different user name as well!!
Avoid joining ANY League wherein the commissioners user name begins with an "E" or "e" is my recommendation!!

I remember the commissioners having a thread where they would blacklist certain owners but when there was the same for commissioners they screamed bloody murder.
Fortunately we don’t have either of those Hall of Shame threads anymore.

For the record the league I have been talking about is run by a good guy.

If you’re in a wins floor/lottery league, and you think 98% of the owners aren’t doing anything to improve their chances to get the top pick, you’re kidding yourself. Like contrarian mentioned, there are dozens of ways that you’d never even know.

to be honest, I think a majority of Wis owners wouldn’t even call it cheating. It drives me crazy, and is why like contrarian, all my leagues take tanking out of the equation with a draft formula or random 1st round. I’m only in one league with a wins floor and I’m only still in it cause I respect the commish, but every year the same team tanks and puts best players in AAA or as mop ups or a dozen other things and it drives me crazy.

I agree and I have stated it myself that there are nuanced ways of cheating and you are not going to see legislation for every possible way.

But a lot of us disdain the completely stupid and arrogant cheating with position players at catcher.

Even the IRS looks the other way with some kinds of cheating up to a certain point but not right in your face cheating.

Imagine every member of a progressive not using their catchers.
It is garbage and those cheaters should get a penalty for being a moron if nothing else.

Posted by chargingryno on 9/13/2022 1:00:00 PM (view original):
If you’re in a wins floor/lottery league, and you think 98% of the owners aren’t doing anything to improve their chances to get the top pick, you’re kidding yourself. Like contrarian mentioned, there are dozens of ways that you’d never even know.

to be honest, I think a majority of Wis owners wouldn’t even call it cheating. It drives me crazy, and is why like contrarian, all my leagues take tanking out of the equation with a draft formula or random 1st round. I’m only in one league with a wins floor and I’m only still in it cause I respect the commish, but every year the same team tanks and puts best players in AAA or as mop ups or a dozen other things and it drives me crazy.

What is ur draft formula?

Posted by ncmusician_7 on 9/13/2022 6:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by chargingryno on 9/13/2022 1:00:00 PM (view original):
If you’re in a wins floor/lottery league, and you think 98% of the owners aren’t doing anything to improve their chances to get the top pick, you’re kidding yourself. Like contrarian mentioned, there are dozens of ways that you’d never even know.

to be honest, I think a majority of Wis owners wouldn’t even call it cheating. It drives me crazy, and is why like contrarian, all my leagues take tanking out of the equation with a draft formula or random 1st round. I’m only in one league with a wins floor and I’m only still in it cause I respect the commish, but every year the same team tanks and puts best players in AAA or as mop ups or a dozen other things and it drives me crazy.

What is ur draft formula?

It was developed by just4me (contrarian referenced it in a previous post as well) and has been tweaked over the years to better represent what it's overall goals are. There are some rather simple formulas, like gonoles' which is salary at game 81*2 + keeper salary - wins = draft score. lowest score drafts 1st. J4M's formula is probably the most complicated formula that I've seen in use.

The formula is:
G= Games against the opponent in question

TeamSal= Each team's salary averaged out over 9 snapshots across the season

TILAS= Team Independent League Average Salary (i.e., the league average salary minus the team in question) averaged over 9 snapshots across the season.

OppSal#= Salary of the opponent in question averaged over the 162 game season. With # representing the Opponent # out of the number of opponents in the league (15 for 16 team league, 19 for 20 team league, 23 for 24 team league, etc).

(%)= ((((OppSal1*(G/162))+(OppSal2*(G/162))+(OppSal3*(G/162))+…+(OppSal#*(G/162))-TeamSal)/TILAS)

AcW= each team's actual wins during the season

ExpW= ((81*-(%)+81)^(%/-10)+1) ***Updated for 1971 season from

TrgtW 20= (ExpW+(ExpW*20%))

TrgtW 30= (ExpW+(ExpW*30%))

Score= ((((AcW-ExpW)/AcW)*100))

Here's a snapshot of last years final draft standings:

	Team		Salary		Ac W		% +/- $		Exp W		Multiplier		TrgtW 20		TrgtW 30		Score
1	New York Times		$67,441,315		85		$0.13		67		1.14		80		87		27.37
2	Boston Plaids		$82,360,804		117		-$0.12		96		0.87		115		125		22.02
3	Texas Rangers		$80,544,841		102		-$0.04		86		0.96		103		111		19.08
4	Philly CRYPTKEEPERS		$77,017,642		101		-$0.04		85		0.96		102		111		18.57
5	‘73 Baltimore Orioles		$66,051,870		79		$0.12		67		1.14		81		88		17.33
6	Detroit Supremes		$68,791,207		81		$0.09		71		1.10		85		92		14.50
7	Cincinnati Mudcats		$83,650,363		101		-$0.08		90		0.92		108		117		11.90
8	‘73 Houston Colt .45s		$72,998,287		85		$0.03		78		1.03		94		101		9.01
9	San Francisco Seals		$69,057,210		70		$0.12		68		1.13		82		88		2.94
10	Milwaukee Brewers		$86,570,565		98		-$0.12		95		0.87		115		124		2.68
11	New York Eagles		$69,363,657		74		$0.08		72		1.08		87		94		2.24
12	St. Louis Perfectos '73		$70,044,781		69		$0.12		68		1.13		82		89		1.33
13	Kansas City Monarchs		$68,835,189		71		$0.08		71		1.09		86		93		-0.67
14	Chicago Thunderbears		$75,885,709		72		$0.03		77		1.03		93		101		-7.05
15	Pittsburg Tanagers		$95,422,450		103		-$0.24		113		0.73		135		147		-8.77
16	SoCal Space Cadets '73		$74,039,484		72		$0.01		80		1.01		96		103		-9.56
17	New York Nutcrackers		$79,357,153		62		-$0.01		82		0.99		99		107		-24.73
18	Oakland Bagchuckers		$62,870,081		47		$0.17		62		1.19		75		81		-24.76
19	San Diego Quake		$86,098,770		66		-$0.11		95		0.88		114		124		-30.53
20	Georgia Browns '73		$90,282,474		65		-$0.24		112		0.74		134		145		-41.78

So the #1 pick was awarded to New York Times franchise because he was able to win 85 games while having one of the lowest salaries in the league. Whereas the Georgia Browns only won 65 games, but had a salary over $90m. The formula not only encourages winning as much as you can, but also encourages you to do so with as little excess as possible. Stashing millions of dollars on the bench can severely hinder your draft positioning in this league. The formula takes in who you play and which league you're in (the % +/- score). A score of 20 typically guarantees you a top 1-3 pick.

Posted by chargingryno on 9/14/2022 12:30:00 AM (view original):
So the #1 pick was awarded to New York Times franchise because he was able to win 85 games while having one of the lowest salaries in the league. Whereas the Georgia Browns only won 65 games, but had a salary over $90m. The formula not only encourages winning as much as you can, but also encourages you to do so with as little excess as possible. Stashing millions of dollars on the bench can severely hinder your draft positioning in this league. The formula takes in who you play and which league you're in (the % +/- score). A score of 20 typically guarantees you a top 1-3 pick.

It might solve the tanking problem, but it can cause the bad teams to have a very limited path to get better. Using team salary as a primary way to determine how many games a team "should" win might be a decent estimate if not for dynamic pricing. The team with the most wins having the 2nd pick looks like nonsense to me. Tanking, with regards to purposely playing inferior players more than they should, can be regulated fairly well with a good commissioner.

To each his own...I personally LOVE the idea of a team with the 6th highest payroll in the league being rewards for vastly overachieving. That's EXACTLY what progressives should reward, in my opinion:
-- Keeping only the talent you need
-- Getting the most out of the talent you keep.


I way, way, way prefer that over a system that just automatically gives the weakest teams in the league a high pick. And as for any commissioner, no matter how good or how experienced, being able to regulate tanking, that I completely disagree with. I do not think it is possible, nor do I think it should be the commissioner's job to keep close tabs on every team throughout the season.