FYI, the response from CS to fd343ny was directly from me.

I fully accept that the current EE logic decided that this guy should go, and regard it as a flawed system. My core question was answered. I remain unconvinced that it is "hard to call 72 a weakness".

we are talking about someone leaving DI for the NBA early - lets look at the easiest available data - recruits who will be freshmen next season. Where would a 72 REB rank among PF's who are in high school and will be freshmen next season

Naismith - 38th

Wooden - 31

Crum -38

Tark 41

Knight 30

The kid is very strong in other ratings but it is simply wrong to say that 72 is anything other than a weakness among DI PFs.

The conclusion must be that strength in other categories can outweigh even a very weak rating in a core category (what is more important than REB for a PF?). Which is what it is.

That's the easiest available data behind my disappointment by that piece of the answer. Data on where a 72 would rank among college players - not high school kids - would of course place him waay lower.

Of course, I used the guy at SF - if the EE algorithm is thinking about players as players and not by position that is an interesting insight. I wonder......if so, his EE makes some sense to me, but I still dont see these numbers as EE numbers.

Average REB for DI PF in all worlds right now is 71.14. I wouldn't consider something that's above average a weakness.

Also, you keep emphasizing his rebounding, but dismissing his 99 ATH, 94 DEF, 99 BLK, 94 LP, and competent to good ratings in everything else. You're telling me an NBA team wouldn't draft a freakish athlete who can defend, block shots and score in the post?

I would say that average for the 300 schools in DI is weak for a BCS conference and very weak for the NBA - I dont know what the number is but I dont think I see many guys below 80 or even 85 REB getting meaningful minutes at the 4 or the 5 in BCS conferences....but that is me taking umbrage at a comment about weak or not weak, not the overall result.

So, I do accept that a kid with that package could get drafted. I continue to think that it is odd that he would go EE.

Some time ago, the observed data (there were threads in the forum) suggested that the odds of EE went way down when ratings were below certain thresholds in core categories - like 95 or so. This was after the fix that kept folks from holding back scoring to avoid EE. Seeing someone who is way below elite - I think weak in relevant context - in a core skill go EE is suprising. But if thats the way it works, so it goes.

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss it and will take the liberty of using this dialogue to make a pitch for the idea of more focused foreshadowing of risk of EE. So many guys get it mentioned in evals that it carries little predictive value. Make those evals more informative by narrowing the set of guys who get the "will/could/might" go early messages and I think it would work a bunch better.

......I digress, but take the discussion just today on Maryland Terp fan boards in real life - would you rather have that Foyle kid from Georgia Tech who is the likely ROY in the ACC, a great player and expected to go EE after freshman year or would you prefer to have Maryland freshman Jordan Williams who folks think (??) will be a four year player and looks darn good......

...and how about the finish of that Maryland v Ga Tech game - if that happened in HD folks would say it was ridiculous and never happens - half court shot for the win with 3 seconds ......disallowed....timeout was called.....inbound with 1.5 seconds .....3 pointer for the win....never happens....except we saw it happen

again, thanks

Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 2/22/2010Average REB for DI PF in all worlds right now is 71.14. I wouldn't consider something that's above average a weakness.

Also, you keep emphasizing his rebounding, but dismissing his 99 ATH, 94 DEF, 99 BLK, 94 LP, and competent to good ratings in everything else. You're telling me an NBA team wouldn't draft a freakish athlete who can defend, block shots and score in the post

Nobody is saying they wouldn't but the fact is that there are many other 'freakish athletes' who can defend, block shots, score in the post AND rebound.

That said I know you have already addressed the fact that you will look into EE logic in the future.

Seble can you throw out an average for big 6 conference rebounding in pfs?

And I join with Z man, hope you look at the EE algorithm in the future and appreciate your commenst

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 2/22/2010Seble can you throw out an average for big 6 conference rebounding in pfs

excluding walkons

Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 2/22/2010Seble can you throw out an average for big 6 conference rebounding in pfs?

79, 81 w/o walkons.

Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 2/22/2010

Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 2/22/2010Seble can you throw out an average for big 6 conference rebounding in pfs?

79, 81 w/o walkons.

Ok so he is below average for his current level of play, I think that is much more accurate then all of D1.

what you guys seem to keep failing to take into account is the SPD and ATH and its impact on rebounding, scoring and defense. one category is never stand alone. the REB is significantly helped by the SPD and ATH. as you guys know (fd and hawk) its the overall body of work ratings wise not just one core.

on a more general point some players seem to want to quantify each and every point of this game. i think that would be bad for the game. the randomness allows for these discussion and reflect the real college game. i think it would be bad for the game if we knew exactly how long every player was going to be at our school.

as for know, its a pretty simple rule. if you recruit high-level talent (which is 90% + of the EE) there is a chance that the player may leave early. that's the reality at any school in real life and so it is in this game. don't get how that is so difficult to deal with in the context of this game.

for god sakes, SU lost 3 underclassmen last year of which only one of them is playing in the NBA and their coach didn't complain to the NCAA that two of them shouldn't go because they weren't good enough. he would've been right but they still . and they didn't even get drafted.

imagine the uproar if WIS implemented a version where borderline academic players leave early just because they know they can't make the grade or the unbelievable guy who leaves because HE feels he's good enough for the NBA and he doesn't get drafted and plays overseas or works at Wal-Mart.

i certainly hope this game doesn't turn more into a math problem so those with that skill set can game those of us trying to simply enjoy ourselves and get a few W's along the way.

and interestingly, it turns out gill and hawks, in a roundabout way, called seble an idiot. i hope seble takes that into consideration when taking into account your numerous suggestions for improvement of the game.

edit: maybe hawks calling him an idiot is a bit of stretch so i'll retract that part.

Nobody is forgetting anything. We all know what ratings mean nam and how they are taken into account there are numerous players with very similar ath/spd ratings and much better reb ratings I don't know why you think we are forgetting things.

the conversation just seemed to focus completely on his REB rating in isolation and how that should preclude him from going pro early. not how good of a rebounder he actually was which would include his ATH and SPD ratings and actual gameplay stats.