Quote: Originally Posted By zbrent716 on 8/27/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By deanod on 8/27/2009
actually, the entire point system seems to be a weird, arbitrary tiebreaker.

win 81 games in S1 and have your minor league teams cumulatively a few games above .500 and you win the challenge

it's pretty much impossible to not hit the threshold by S2, so it basically becomes a race to an 81 win season at that point.

It's not impossible dean, all they have to do to miss 1200 points is duplicate what you did this past season with Las Vegas.

91 ML wins earns 455 points.
67 AAA wins earns 201 points.
67 AA wins earns 201 points.
80 High A wins earns 160 points.
59 Low A wins earns 118 points.
27 Rookie wins earns 54 points.

So, for example, your most recently completed season earned only 1189 points - short of the 1200 they are aiming for - and you've had that franchise for 4 seasons now.

And yes, I'm sure you "weren't trying" to win minor league games, right? Because that's the best way to build a franchise...

... or did you just not read it correctly and see it says "Winner will be whoever scores more than 1200 pts in a season first," (emphasis added)?

when did minor league wins become the best way to major league success?

as deanod has stated, i could stock my all levels of my minor leagues with AAAA talent and they would rock, but would that really "build my franchise"

developing talent builds franchises, not minor league wins

sometimes they occur together, but its not necessary

Quote: Originally Posted By ea162 on 8/27/2009

<snip>

when did minor league wins become the best way to major league success?

as deanod has stated, i could stock my all levels of my minor leagues with AAAA talent and they would rock, but would that really "build my franchise"

developing talent builds franchises, not minor league wins

sometimes they occur together, but its not necessary

First off, a league full of active owners won't have AAAA talent available that will sign for minor league deals for very long. You'd also be wasting your salary space on minor league teams, which would decrease your ability to win at the major league level. If you look at the challenge, that "risk" is explicitly dealt with both by weighing ML wins more and by having a ML win minimum.

On a broader level, you're right that "developing talent builds franchises" but winning games (specifically making the minor league playoffs and winning games there) helps your talent develop better than they otherwise would.

It always amazes me how veteran owners take all sorts of precautions to make sure their prospects develop "correctly" but completely ignore the fact that winning at the minor league level can help for prospect development.

Tk and skidd, good luck in your challenge. I believe you will find Joey Belle to be entertaining and challenging. I know my first season last year was both.

i don't ignore it, i just don't place much of a premium on it. you need to make the playoffs and win a couple of rounds for the extra ratings bump. i always like getting the extra bump, but i'm not going to extend myself too far trying to get it.

and you could be tempted to fill out your minor leagues with $200K IFA's to fortify your "system". that's only going to reduce your odds of landing an actual prospect.

Thanks mjwilson

Quote: Originally Posted By deanod on 8/27/2009
i don't ignore it, i just don't place much of a premium on it. you need to make the playoffs and win a couple of rounds for the extra ratings bump. i always like getting the extra bump, but i'm not going to extend myself too far trying to get it.

and you could be tempted to fill out your minor leagues with $200K IFA's to fortify your "system". that's only going to reduce your odds of landing an actual prospect.

That could happen with the Int'l FA, I suppose. The top guys normally seem to get outrageous contracts, so it's not an area I spend much time in.

As far as needing to win a couple rounds in the minor league playoffs to gain a benefit, I don't believe that's true, and here's my reasoning.

1) Player development is aided by playing time.

2) Developement "bumps" are not actual changes, but instead merely snapshots in a player's development at a given time period. The developing player continues to develop even between such snapshots.

3) Fractional Development exists, even for individual ratings - which is why you'll occasionally see a change in OVR rating without any individual rating change.

4) Such fractional development carries over from one season to the next. (This is more of a "common sense" thing to me, not explicitly confirmed/denied by sitestaff)

5) Every extra game played by a minor league team (even if the team is swept in the first round) has some fractional benefit to the development of a prospect. While you may only see the extra "snapshot" if you make the LCS/WS, I believe the development is still occurring in the background.

i will counter that argument by saying that adding a fraction of a point to a few categories for my prospects just doesn't really excite me too much.

now i will digress- i think the fractional stuff may show up in offseason ratings lik power and range, where a playoff appearance may help a player get an extra point in his progression.

but stuff like contact, vL, vR, etc. vanish into thin air at season's end, as far as i know. i'm not positive, but i'm pretty sure i saw a player who would have gained a point in each category with an end of season promotion not gain anything in said categories after rollover. he didn't have a special opening day bump either.

shlabotnik world is in the midst of the world series, i'll pick out a few players to look at specifically when it rolls.

I agree that the idea of a fraction of a point for a few categories isn't terribly "exciting" but in the best case scenario - where a player's minor league level team makes/wins the WS in each of the 4 seasons of his minor league career - you're talking about enough games that those benefits add up to almost a 5th season's worth of development. That's worth something to me.

Even if you don't make the WS consistently, it's not extremely difficult (as you've noted) to win at the minor league level, so why leave even fractional development points "on the table" as it were, when they are so easy to accumulate?

As far as the difference between carry-over on "raw" vs "skill" ratings, I hadn't heard anything like that before, but I suppose anything is possible (though if I understand your example correctly, I don't think it's applicable here).

on average, four playoff trips will get you two 1st round losses, a 2nd round loss, and a trip to the 3rd round (and beyond).

even if the fractions add up, you're talking about an expected two bumps for making the postseason every year during the prospects development- about an extra 1/3 of a season of development. that's worth something to me, but not very much considering the efforts put in.

I think all you guys are picking nits over SOMEONE ELSE'S bet when it's really NOYFB.

They have their bet and they've agreed on the T's and C's. If you think you have a cleverer way to do it, then step up and do it and STFU.

Quote: Originally posted by toddcommish on 8/27/2009I think all you guys are picking nits over SOMEONE ELSE'S bet when it's really NOYFB.They have their bet and they've agreed on the T's and C's.  If you think you have a cleverer way to do it, then step up and do it and STFU.

Thank you for writing exactly what I had been thinking.

Quote: Originally posted by toddcommish on 8/27/2009I think all you guys are picking nits over SOMEONE ELSE'S bet when it's really NOYFB.They have their bet and they've agreed on the T's and C's.  If you think you have a cleverer way to do it, then step up and do it and STFU.

Thank you

Quote: Originally posted by toddcommish on 8/27/2009I think all you guys are picking nits over SOMEONE ELSE'S bet when it's really NOYFB.They have their bet and they've agreed on the T's and C's.  If you think you have a cleverer way to do it, then step up and do it and STFU.

actually, it is my business, seeing that it was posted in a public forum and all. elsewhise, they could have kept it in world chat.

and i do have a better way to do it. i just haven't inherited a POS team lately.

Quote: Originally Posted By blanch13 on 8/27/2009

Quote: Originally posted by toddcommish on 8/27/2009
I think all you guys are picking nits over SOMEONE ELSE'S bet when it's really NOYFB.

They have their bet and they've agreed on the T's and C's. If you think you have a cleverer way to do it, then step up and do it and STFU.

Thank yo

My apoligies for "hijacking" the thread.

I haven't been "picking nits" over the bet at all - as I said, I thought it was a good idea and wished them both luck with it - I just got sidetracked with deano's take on it.

Again, my bad. If blanch or one of the other participants really wants to make sure that no one else discusses things in the thread, might I suggest using the World Chat, World Blog, or some other forum where there's no concern about tangential discussions.

zbrent, I don't think your posts were "picking nits" over anything as you were politely discussing different points. The reason that this was decided to be posted in the forum was to generate some discussion and interest in the challenge as we figured it could go for a few seasons and if there was interest, for us to post the reasoning behind trades, signings, etc. The thread was discussed as a positive and possibly fun idea. I'm all for discussions and getting others ideas, as long as those ideas are presented in a repectful manner.