Beta Testing Topic

furry_nipps
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Quote: Originally posted by emy1013 on 11/09/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By furry_nipps on 11/09/2009Well, hopefully the changes that everyone have been asking for (rankings, seedings, durability) all work out the way we want them too because those were always such a big problem. Glad to see the things that are perfect (EE, def rating, FT shooting, recruiting distances etc, prestige being perfect and so on) are not being touched. Hopefully we get the laughs and can read the convos.


User - I just lost this crap player to EE, but player x (way better) stays.

WIS - Its that way to balance the game.


User - My A+ Duke team can't beat D- Sac state for a recruit in Utah who wants to play far from home.


WIS - Its that way to balance the game.


User- My players keep getting minor injuries almost every game.

WIS- It happens in real life.




User - Okay, so you won't 'fix' anything thats wrong. Whats the point of this?


WIS- Just to make it look like we listen. Thanks for spending your time testing bugs. We will be correcting some things over the next few months before fulling rolling it out (just saying that to make it look like we are listening and making changes that you want.)I hope you're not right, but given WIS' track record, I'm afraid you're gonna be right on the money.



I hope I am wrong. I hope just this one time they will listen to the customers and really think about it. Don't throw out something that happened 47 years ago to defend it. Don't agree it should not work that way, but then follow up that it is not important right now to fix. I really do hope for the sake of the game and for seble (sp?) that whoever answers CS tickets is nowhere near the beta test or its a lost cause and no hopes of any issues with it getting fixed.
11/9/2009 10:14 PM
zhawks
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Furry, I understand where you are coming from. Most of what you speak of was what happened during the TK era. Seble has been much more open to ideas and discussing the engine and HD in general with vet coaches then he was. Seble deserves his chance before it is determined that he too is not open to suggestions.
11/9/2009 10:42 PM
daalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By coach_billyg on 11/09/2009
Quote: Originally posted by hackerhog on 11/09/2009 I hate to go against the grain here, but...

Someone else said it here already. Experienced users have tunnel vision and make terrible beta testers. Whereas newbies do the unexpected and make excellent beta testers. Your best QA people don't know everything, but enough to be dangerous. That, right there, is your ideal beta tester.

this is pretty far off the mark. from a generic software development standpoint, sure, new users may try something convoluted that an experienced user may implicitly avoid. and yes, they have their place in the beta testing - primarily to weed out what is not as obvious or straight forward as you intended. but the most valued beta testers, by far, are the power users. who else can tell you if your product has all the functionality it needs? if you covered a complex but necessary scenario? if the most relevant information is displayed in the most practical locations?

in HD terms, for some examples, a new player can't look at the pool of recruits and tell you if the programmers went too far or not far enough. a new user can't tell you if the change to calculate ranking after each game went wrong and changed the ranking formulas, or if they are just in their natural state of ridiculousness. the flaws in the engine seble claims to seek to correct are deeply rooted conceptual flaws, not the "whoops i forgot to check if the user put a special character in the integer box" kind. what seble needs are power users who will call him on conceptual design flaws, not just simple bugs
11/10/2009 4:24 AM
oldresorter
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some of these guys know what they are talking about as they work in software fields, I would tend to agree that it takes a seasoned eye to tell how well the beta is working vs the current release.

two major things I would add:

#1 - unless selble lays out what his expectations are for the new engine, it will be impossible to evaluate, as I would suspect there are wildly varying hopes / wishes / expectations for the release

#2 - although not a major part of the evaluation, 2 vet users (like daalter / oldavey or especially alblack) should team up with 10 newer players in a d3 conference, I think this should be part of every major eval, just to make sure that the changes are not so complex as to make the game to frustrating to learn - with the vets there to spur CC posting and answer questions
11/10/2009 8:01 AM
dalter
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That's a good idea, OR. Obviously I refuse to answer any questions from newer coaches because I like to keep them beat down in DIII, but I like it in theory.
11/10/2009 8:27 AM
metsmax
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I think new folks will tend to uncover different categories of concerns than will veterans - and both can be valuable

Newer folks may flag some elements of the interface that are not intuitive - while veterans may understand it because we know - think we know - what they are trying to do

Newer folks may make mistakes that will lead to paths that uncover bugs

etc
11/10/2009 9:40 AM
bigtexhawk
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Would it not make sense for the Beta Testers to come from all three of the aforementioned groups. The Newbies, who could do the unexpected when it comes to testing the waters. The Veterans who know the games subtle nuances and have a history of knowing the previous engines, their changes, their shortcomings and their successes. The In-Betweeners, those of us mired in DII mediocrity or low-level DI trying to move up the ladder. Guys that have a good understanding of the game, better than Newbs but not as well as the Vets.

Each group will play the game how they would normally play and had their suggestions or comments, questions or concerns, when they come up.

Just a thought.

And as far as the Knight thing goes, I agree with the idea that Seble may just be cloning that world for the Beta Test. It may be detrimental to have a team in Knight for that reason (That being if you wish to be a Beta tester).
11/10/2009 9:44 AM
dalter
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Yes, I think that it makes sense to have all of the groups represented, I just think that it should clearly be weighted to the well-established vets.
11/10/2009 10:01 AM
zhawks
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I don't think any of the vets here have said that newer players shouldn't be included, yet numerous people have come in here and said how the vets are wrong for saying that the newer coaches should be out.
11/10/2009 10:14 AM
dalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By nbstowman on 11/10/2009
For once in a long time frame, they have their ideas right here, get everyone represented, include long term vets with mid term players and complete newbies. Now, put them in the same conferences and see how things work out.

It's not hard for an established d1 coach to drop a level, pick up a A or A+ prestige school and flaunt their success. With everyone on the same ground, a lot of "big names" may not do as well as they think they will.



What in the world does this have to do with beta testing?
11/10/2009 11:15 AM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 11/10/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By nbstowman on 11/10/2009

For once in a long time frame, they have their ideas right here, get everyone represented, include long term vets with mid term players and complete newbies. Now, put them in the same conferences and see how things work out.

It's not hard for an established d1 coach to drop a level, pick up a A or A+ prestige school and flaunt their success. With everyone on the same ground, a lot of "big names" may not do as well as they think they will.




What in the world does this have to do with beta testing?
Agreed. Beta testing is not about winning.
11/10/2009 11:17 AM
nbstowman
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Agreed, so lets use everyone for testers, not just weight things in favor of those with more seasons under their belt.
11/10/2009 11:22 AM
furry_nipps
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Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 11/09/2009Furry, I understand where you are coming from. Most of what you speak of was what happened during the TK era. Seble has been much more open to ideas and discussing the engine and HD in general with vet coaches then he was. Seble deserves his chance before it is determined that he too is not open to suggestions.


Thats why I hope it is just seble that the testers are dealing with. He is less of "your wrong I'm right." but isn't exactly open to "You are right, I'll change it." yet.
11/10/2009 11:29 AM
nbstowman
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And to Dalter and Zhawks, you're right, I was not nitpicking, and my point may have had no place on this thread, but I still feel everyone, regardless of their "prestige" in these forums deserves a shot at the testing process.
11/10/2009 11:37 AM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/10/2009I don't think any of the vets here have said that newer players shouldn't be included, yet numerous people have come in here and said how the vets are wrong for saying that the newer coaches should be out
11/10/2009 12:01 PM
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