Another One Bites the Dust... Topic

zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By oldave on 12/08/2009
possibly the most perplexing thing about HD... how does the furr-dog win when he thinks like this?

i guess it shows there is more than one way to skin a cat.

and maybe its just that he does some things reallly really well (FREEHD??) and that offsets the areas that he seemingly doesnt understand as well.

12/8/2009 2:33 PM
furry_nipps
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Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 12/08/2009How can you even think that? The ability to grow your players is completely dependant on their predeterimned potentials, which in no way you can change no matter how many practice minutes you put in. That didn't use to be the case.

I am not saying that they change. A player that is going to max out at 80 before still will max out at 80 now. It is how you use the minutes now that make them useful. Before it didn't matter how you used them the players always went up 6 to 8 per main area and ended up the same as every player. Now if you use your practice plan right you can max out your players faster then other coaches. This is the big difference that makes practice times a hell of a lot more useful then they ever were.
12/8/2009 5:15 PM
reinsel
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I have only ever had 1 team. I took over a terrible team in D3, spent 1 year there and moved to a B prestige D3 team that I built into a Final Four/Elite 8 A prestige winner. Then 2 years at a B+/A- level D2 team, and off to low D1.

My 4 seasons at a D/C/now B- mid-major have been the most fun. Every game is critical, because you are competing to get an at-large bid if you don't win your CT with a very strong group of Power conf coaches. Recruiting is hard because the big 6 have so much NT/PT cash, and its just challenging. And fun.
12/8/2009 6:24 PM
gillispie1
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on the practice planning subject... i think it is a meet in the middle kind of thing. furry, you did not grasp the value of practice planning before potential, based on your statements of how you used it. you used to have ability to shape what a player would look like when he graduates - that was fairly significant and had real ramifications on team planning. this is lost today.

however, practice planning definitely matters today to an extent. how fast you improve your guys in real terms (not in # of points, but value added to the player) will affect the performance of teams, and fluctuates significantly based on your practice plan. for example, how many coaches still use 7 minutes on very low potential off cores early in a guys career? i bet there are pretty many. after some somewhat misleading CS responses about 7 minutes being the minimum not to lose points (which was really a case of users reading into things to much), coaches would disagree with me in threads about 5 to 1 about being able to use 0 with negligible losses. that is a pretty huge hit to the growth of your most important cores if you lose 7, 14, or 21 over what you could be putting into them!
12/8/2009 6:58 PM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally posted by furry_nipps on 12/08/2009
Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 12/08/2009How can you even think that? The ability to grow your players is completely dependant on their predeterimned potentials, which in no way you can change no matter how many practice minutes you put in. That didn't use to be the case.
I am not saying that they change. A player that is going to max out at 80 before still will max out at 80 now. It is how you use the minutes now that make them useful. Before it didn't matter how you used them the players always went up 6 to 8 per main area and ended up the same as every player. Now if you use your practice plan right you can max out your players faster then other coaches. This is the big difference that makes practice times a hell of a lot more useful then they ever were.

I am losing more and more respect for you with every word you say about this subject. Players didn't have a cap on ANY rating before, NOW they do.
12/8/2009 7:23 PM
zhawks
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The more you say "They just went up 6 to 8 points" is totally disregarding the fact that many coaches knew how to get maximum development from players not just oh maybe 6 to 8. Now you can only get development at a certain level to a certain point regardless of what you do as a coach.
12/8/2009 7:25 PM
moy23
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/08/2009
Titles? I only see 1.

Practice Plans use to be where some of the great coaches were able to seperate from the good coaches. I know I never drastically changed mine but i tinkered with it quite a bit to get maximum player development.

It always has been and still is recruiting that differentiates the greats from the goods.
12/8/2009 7:39 PM
moy23
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Quote: Originally Posted By oldave on 12/08/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By namshub on 12/08/2009

Is it the engine or that you've reached maximum utility with this product based upon the number of games/seasons coached? How long does one think it is sustainable to have 15, 10 or even 7 teams?

Personally, I have kept my teams at a low number in order to prolong the use of the product for myself. Teams/players are more personal when the number of teams is limited. Even in limiting my teams I have become bored at times with this game.

Recently, I have taken over a D+ prestige DI team and it really changed the game for me. Added more excitement, strategy to recruiting, scheduling and game planning/depth charts. I'm going to try and build a program at a low-level school which I haven't done in a long time. I would recommend this for someone who is finding themselves bored/frustrated with the same old stuff.

a great post that seemingly went unnoticed. i think that taking over a low prestige team in a low-major D1 conference in D1 in a world that is mostly full of humans at the BCS schools at least would be a real challenge and i know for me it would almost become a brand new game in terms of enjoyment, etc.

i plan to follow namshies lead into the lowD1 coaching business as soon as i can reach 1000 wins with oneonta-iba and retire there. im really looking forward to it.

I just did the same in Tark adding D prestige SIU. Its definitely a challenge and I'm now back to two HD teams.
12/8/2009 7:42 PM
zhawks
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This post could not be converted. To view the original post's thread, click here.
12/8/2009 7:42 PM
moy23
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/08/2009

Quote: Originally posted by furry_nipps on 12/08/2009

Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 12/08/2009How can you even think that? The ability to grow your players is completely dependant on their predeterimned potentials, which in no way you can change no matter how many practice minutes you put in. That didn't use to be the case.
I am not saying that they change. A player that is going to max out at 80 before still will max out at 80 now. It is how you use the minutes now that make them useful. Before it didn't matter how you used them the players always went up 6 to 8 per main area and ended up the same as every player. Now if you use your practice plan right you can max out your players faster then other coaches. This is the big difference that makes practice times a hell of a lot more useful then they ever were.

I am losing more and more respect for you with every word you say about this subject. Players didn't have a cap on ANY rating before, NOW they do.
they may not have had a cap but they definitely had a simple system to figure out - FTs, SB (never went up) and DEF were slow movers no matter how many mins you put in - The rest you just had to plan for 6-8 points a season and place about 10-15 minutes to the attribute. Oh, and don't practice on categories less than 20. Use those minutes elsewhere.

The post-potential players are still reaching the same potential they did in the past - they are just doing it faster now (maybe too fast) and the big diff is some categories (usually non-core) you can not build quickly on now putting more emphasis on recruiting the right recruits. I actually agree with furry here (and I know I am going to hell for this). I think practice mins are more complicated now and they mean more now.

zhawks - did daalter appoint you the HD know-it-all? just curious.
12/8/2009 7:54 PM
mullycj
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Quote: Originally Posted By moy23 on 12/08/2009
I think practice mins are more complicated now and they mean more now.
sorry ...just have to laugh my *** off on that statement.
12/8/2009 8:06 PM
zhawks
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Moy I think we are having a very big mis-understanding with between the old and new potential systems. Before there was no cap, now there is - I can not understand how you and furry can say that both work the same way in terms of, not only where a player ends his career, but more importantly how much direct decision making a coach has on how to develop his players. There is very little, if any, direct dictation that a coach has on his players development now. It is already decided by FSS prior to a coach even having his recruiting monies to spend.
12/8/2009 8:23 PM
moy23
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just my opinion. to each there own. imo it was quite simple to set practice minutes back in the day - call it no caps, building a player, whatever you want, imo it was too simple. maybe I'm just slow but I'm still trying to perfect post-potential practice mins to maximize gains. there is no right or wrong answer here yet you act like there is.

I think some people tend to remember only the good **** from back in the day of player builds in HD. It's like Ron Reagan, the guy dies and people wanted to put him on a dollar bill. 1/2 those people probably didn' even like him that much when he was president. Michael Jackson dies and people forget he was a pedophile (sp?). HD gets potential and people forget how simple it was to figure out how to "build" a player back in the day.

pre-potential player development was a sinch. Once seble slows down post-potential developement then we will see a MUCH MUCH MUCH better system in place for player developement than the old HD ever was. again jmo. you don't have to understand.
12/8/2009 8:51 PM
zhawks
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How is it more complex now? You can't get a player better then his potential, it is limiting, how is limiting player development and taking choices away from a coach making it more complex?
12/8/2009 8:54 PM
moy23
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/08/2009
How is it more complex now? You can't get a player better then his potential, it is limiting, how is limiting player development and taking choices away from a coach making it more complex?
thats how you see it. I see post-potential practice mins as an equation testing me to make decisions as to how I can max out player ratings by employing the right combo of practice mins to the right attributes based on the fact that they all will improve at 3 speeds - quickly vs average vs slowly. Now categories with 20 can improve greatly as well. Thats a lot more variables than in the past.

In the past it was SB did not move, FTs and DEF moved slow, Cores moved at the same rate (the equivelent of average in post-potential). Categories at <20 did not improve much.

more complex from my perspective. the post-potential flaw is that players are acheiving their max too soon. seble is working to slow that down. once thats done I think player building is much more complex than it's ever been.
12/8/2009 9:25 PM
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