Quote: Originally posted by antonsirius on 1/02/2010
I like my ML starters to have at least three big league quality pitches (60+). I don't care if they have a fringy fourth pitch, because I don't use catchers that would be stupid enough to call for it.

Pitch Calling is merely a modifier on OAV so I dont think that having a strong pitch caller will affect the fourth pitch being thrown or not.

That is correct ^

Quote: Originally posted by antonsirius on 1/03/2010

Quote: Originally posted by zbrent716 on 1/03/2010Yea, I still don't really know what you're trying to say.
Just in case any new owners read your initial post the same way I did, let me clarify for them.

According to my own experience and everything that has ever been said by the engine developers, Admin, or CS, pitch types have no impact in the HBD engine.

So please point to where in my post I said "look for a player with a Sinker as his primary pitch".

I was pretty clear in stating what sort of pitch assortment I found to be effective in an HBD starter: three pitches of at least 60+, OR one 80+ pitch combined with a GB rating of 80+.

Anton, you said "The exception [to your 3 pitches of 60+ rule] is sinkerballers. A pitcher with a one very good-to-great (80+) pitch and a very-good-to-great GB/FB rating (80+) can be solid -- Keith Stanley being a prime example."

Keith Stanley's first listed pitch is a sinkerball. If you didn't intend on implying the pitch type mattered, your "exception" sentence is meaningless and/or misleading and your choice of words was very poor.

Not from what I've seen said in dev chats, oriole/rob, although they've been deliberately obscure about how it works. They certainly didn't confirm the "only an OAV modifier" theory when they had the chance:


Is it better for a pitcher to have 2 really good pitches or 2 really good pitches and 3 mediocre to lousy pitches? Does catcher pitch calling play into this? (csherwood - All*Star - 4:16 PM)

A guy with 2 pitches would typically be a reliever and a guy with 5 is usually a starter. Catcher pitch calling impacts OAV, so a good catcher definitely helps a pitching staff.

*****

Will you talk a little bit about pitch calling rating and how much emphasis/importance it has. (brygold - Hall of Famer - 4:24 PM)

A top defensive catcher will help a pitcher make better pitches and reduce offensive production. A horrible catcher will lead to poor pitch selection and cause a boost in offensive production. Not gonna list the percentages, though.

*****

Can you explain a little more about the relationship between the number of pitches a pitcher has and the quality of his pitches. (swamphawk22 - Hall of Famer - 3:45 PM)

A pitcher with 3 80-rated pitches has an advantage over a pitcher with 2 80-rated pitches. It depends on the quality of pitches. A guy with a dominant #1 pitch and two average secondary pitches will be better than a guy with 3 average pitches. It works like how you'd expect. A guy who continues to include a very weak pitch will give up the homer more often. A good pitching coach will get that guy to drop the weak pitch, making him a better pitcher. This typically occurs in the offseason.

*****

Clarification Q - I believe a common misperception is that individual pitches are called and a high PC will help pitchers with a wide range of pitch rating quality (ex 95, 65, 35) more than a pitchers with similar pitch rating quality (ex 65, 65, 65). Is it more accurate to think of PC as an OAV modifier used in conjunction with all of the pitchers ratings that will help or hurt pitchers generaly the same relative amount with the OAV? Or am I mistaken? (broadwayevns - Pro - 12:27 PM)

The pitchers pitch ratings and the catchers pitch calling rating are used to determine how successful that pitcher is throughout the course of the at bat.

This post could not be converted. To view the original post's thread, click here.

Quote: Originally posted by antonsirius on 1/03/2010Not from what I've seen said in dev chats, oriole/rob, although they've been deliberately obscure about how it works. They certainly didn't confirm the "only an OAV modifier" theory when they had the chance:


Is it better for a pitcher to have 2 really good pitches or 2 really good pitches and 3 mediocre to lousy pitches? Does catcher pitch calling play into this? (csherwood - All*Star - 4:16 PM)

A guy with 2 pitches would typically be a reliever and a guy with 5 is usually a starter. Catcher pitch calling impacts OAV, so a good catcher definitely helps a pitching staff.

*****

Will you talk a little bit about pitch calling rating and how much emphasis/importance it has. (brygold - Hall of Famer - 4:24 PM)

A top defensive catcher will help a pitcher make better pitches and reduce offensive production. A horrible catcher will lead to poor pitch selection and cause a boost in offensive production. Not gonna list the percentages, though.

*****

Can you explain a little more about the relationship between the number of pitches a pitcher has and the quality of his pitches. (swamphawk22 - Hall of Famer - 3:45 PM)

A pitcher with 3 80-rated pitches has an advantage over a pitcher with 2 80-rated pitches. It depends on the quality of pitches. A guy with a dominant #1 pitch and two average secondary pitches will be better than a guy with 3 average pitches. It works like how you'd expect. A guy who continues to include a very weak pitch will give up the homer more often. A good pitching coach will get that guy to drop the weak pitch, making him a better pitcher. This typically occurs in the offseason.

*****

Clarification Q - I believe a common misperception is that individual pitches are called and a high PC will help pitchers with a wide range of pitch rating quality (ex 95, 65, 35) more than a pitchers with similar pitch rating quality (ex 65, 65, 65). Is it more accurate to think of PC as an OAV modifier used in conjunction with all of the pitchers ratings that will help or hurt pitchers generaly the same relative amount with the OAV? Or am I mistaken? (broadwayevns - Pro - 12:27 PM)

The pitchers pitch ratings and the catchers pitch calling rating are used to determine how successful that pitcher is throughout the course of the at bat.

And of course you missed the obvious answers from previous dev chats...


Q - Is it better for a pitcher to have 2 really good pitches or 2 really good pitches and 3 mediocre to lousy pitches? Does catcher pitch calling play into this? (csherwood - All*Star - 4:16 PM)

A - A guy with 2 pitches would typically be a reliever and a guy with 5 is usually a starter. Catcher pitch calling impacts OAV, so a good catcher definitely helps a pitching staff.


Q - Does a catcher's pitch calling affect anything other than OAV? Does it affect how many pitches a pitcher throws per inning? (sweetsalve - Hall of Famer - 1:11 PM)

A - No, it only affects OAV.

This post could not be converted. To view the original post's thread, click here.

How long has it been since Derek Lowe's slider was anything but a token pitch?

Quote: Originally posted by oriolemagic on 1/03/2010

Quote: Originally posted by antonsirius on 1/03/2010Not from what I've seen said in dev chats, oriole/rob, although they've been deliberately obscure about how it works. They certainly didn't confirm the "only an OAV modifier" theory when they had the chance:

Is it better for a pitcher to have 2 really good pitches or 2 really good pitches and 3 mediocre to lousy pitches? Does catcher pitch calling play into this? (csherwood - All*Star - 4:16 PM)

A guy with 2 pitches would typically be a reliever and a guy with 5 is usually a starter. Catcher pitch calling impacts OAV, so a good catcher definitely helps a pitching staff.

*****

Will you talk a little bit about pitch calling rating and how much emphasis/importance it has. (brygold - Hall of Famer - 4:24 PM)

A top defensive catcher will help a pitcher make better pitches and reduce offensive production. A horrible catcher will lead to poor pitch selection and cause a boost in offensive production. Not gonna list the percentages, though.

*****

Can you explain a little more about the relationship between the number of pitches a pitcher has and the quality of his pitches. (swamphawk22 - Hall of Famer - 3:45 PM)

A pitcher with 3 80-rated pitches has an advantage over a pitcher with 2 80-rated pitches. It depends on the quality of pitches. A guy with a dominant #1 pitch and two average secondary pitches will be better than a guy with 3 average pitches. It works like how you'd expect. A guy who continues to include a very weak pitch will give up the homer more often. A good pitching coach will get that guy to drop the weak pitch, making him a better pitcher. This typically occurs in the offseason.

*****

Clarification Q - I believe a common misperception is that individual pitches are called and a high PC will help pitchers with a wide range of pitch rating quality (ex 95, 65, 35) more than a pitchers with similar pitch rating quality (ex 65, 65, 65). Is it more accurate to think of PC as an OAV modifier used in conjunction with all of the pitchers ratings that will help or hurt pitchers generaly the same relative amount with the OAV? Or am I mistaken? (broadwayevns - Pro - 12:27 PM)

The pitchers pitch ratings and the catchers pitch calling rating are used to determine how successful that pitcher is throughout the course of the at bat.

And of course you missed the obvious answers from previous dev chats...


Q - Is it better for a pitcher to have 2 really good pitches or 2 really good pitches and 3 mediocre to lousy pitches? Does catcher pitch calling play into this? (csherwood - All*Star - 4:16 PM)

A - A guy with 2 pitches would typically be a reliever and a guy with 5 is usually a starter. Catcher pitch calling impacts OAV, so a good catcher definitely helps a pitching staff.


Q - Does a catcher's pitch calling affect anything other than OAV? Does it affect how many pitches a pitcher throws per inning? (sweetsalve - Hall of Famer - 1:11 PM)

A - No, it only affects OAV.

I quoted the first one. "Impacts" is not the same as "modifies".

And what dev chat is the second one from? Although it's in classic devchatese -- the answer could just as easily mean "No, it affects OAV and not number of pitches" as it could "No, it affects nothing at all in the game beyond OAV."

And neither of those answers explains the "throughout the at bat" answer to the last question I quoted, which at least implies that each pitch is resolved independently in some fashion, rather than the plate appearance being resolved as a whole.

Quote: Originally posted by antonsirius on 1/03/2010How long has it been since Derek Lowe's slider was anything but a token pitch?

Based on the most recent (2009) data I could find, Lowe throws that "token" pitch more often than his sinker. He also throws his fastball more often than his sinker. So to suggest he relies solely on his sinker is, again, misleading at best.

And nice dodge of my question, too.

And, as long as I'm trying to help out new owners who you seem hell-bent on misleading -

The simulation engine does not simulate on a pitch-by-pitch basis.

and hence, the whole "throwing a weak 4th pitch" argument (with regard to pitch calling) is null and void. Pitch calling has nothing to do with how often the various pitches are called....at least here in HBD land

Quote: Originally posted by zbrent716 on 1/03/2010And, as long as I'm trying to help out new owners who you seem hell-bent on misleading -

The simulation engine does not simulate on a pitch-by-pitch basis.

Then explain that "throughout the course of the at bat" answer.

Quote: Originally posted by antonsirius on 1/03/2010

Quote: Originally posted by zbrent716 on 1/03/2010And, as long as I'm trying to help out new owners who you seem hell-bent on misleading -
The simulation engine does not simulate on a pitch-by-pitch basis.

Then explain that "throughout the course of the at bat" answer.

Who knows what they meant, but they have made it clear on several occasions at bats are simulated as a whole not on a pitch by pitch basis.

Ignoring, for the moment, what they've explicitly said on multiple occasions regarding pitch-by-pitch simulation...

The HBD engine was brought over from simleague baseball. Simleague baseball has "Live" play, based on that same engine. You can go and see for yourself that the engine does not work on a pitch-by-pitch basis.

Also, if it was pitch-by-pitch, there's no reason you'd ever see a pitcher go over his MPC, which you see now once in a while because he began the PA below it and, after the PA finished, ended up above it.

Or you could believe what has been said on one of the few aspects of the engine that CS/developer/Admin have been consistent, unanimous, and unequivocal on.