Posted by johnsensing on 6/25/2010 10:20:00 AM (view original):

Posted by kowboykoop on 6/25/2010 9:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by johnsensing on 6/25/2010 9:13:00 AM (view original):

i think several of the responses to this thread are building some strawmen.  The original post is not so much as a complaint that the other team "got hot" or that mu "hates the new engine when he loses," but that despite a major advantage in spd, and playing a + defense, an inferior team still bombed him out from 3.   that should not happen -- in DI, that Kent St team shouldn't be able to go 11-19 from 3 in an empty gym. 

my understanding was that the new engine was supposed to be designed to give players more "control" over the game -- if you play a + defense and an inferior still crushes you from 3 (and this is NOT an isolated incident), what's the point of gameplanning at all?  this seems to be to be a major flaw in the new engine (which i otherwise generally like).

So, a  bad shooting team should NEVER HAVE ONE GOOD SHOOTING GAME EVER.

That's what you're saying.

Do you watch sports? Bad three point shooting teams have good games all the time. Dallas Braden threw a freaking perfect game...bet that should probably "never happen" according to hit ratings. Jose Lima won a hell of a lot of ballgames one year. Guess MLB in real life is unrealistic. Brian Scalabrine scored 29 points in a game one time. Yeah, Brian Scalabrine....nearly 10x his career average, DESPITE THE RATINGS!!! How can that happen??

There are reasons to complain about the engine. A team having a good shooting night isn't one of them...and it happens more in this game than in real life because there are SOOOO many more games in the WIS universe per calender year than in real life..thus things that happen only 10 or so times a calender year in real life are going to be seen a hell of a lot more in WIS because there are multiple worlds that EACH play at least 7-8 times as many games per year than their real life counterparts...think about it.

sigh.  again with the building of the strawmen.  it appears you managed to cut and paste my post without actually, y'know, reading it.  despite this, i'll try to respond to your points, such as they are. 

first, i'll actually agree with your initial point, to an extent.  while i didn't say that "a bad shooting team should never have one good shooting game," (again, the reading), you are absolutely right that that specific bad shooting team should never ever ever go 11-19 from 3 against a + defense when laboring under a significant speed disadvantage.  i don't know if you have a DI team or not -- nor do i care -- but a high PER rating of 64 on a DI team is amazingly bad.

second, dallas braden, jose lima, and brian scalabrine have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this game -- you might as well have quoted euro exchange rates or the causes of World War I.  a lot of people like to make that "crazy stuff happens in real life" argument on this forum -- that doesn't make it valid. 

finally, you admit that there are reasons to complain about the engine, but claim that a "good shooting night" isn't one of them.  again, agreed, but that game didn't have a "good" shooting night -- given the teams involved and the gameplanning, it was an astronomically great shooting night for Kent St.  this is a computer game -- there are going to be outliers.  but that shooting performance, again, given the teams and the gameplanning, seems to me to be several standard deviations off the bell curve. and again, this is not an isolated incident -- too many crappy three-point shooting teams are shooting the lights out.  that is a MAJOR flaw in the new engine.

It seems, john, that you're hung up on the idea that "that team" should never, under any circumstances, shoot 11-19 from 3 against the opposition it faced. I don't think looking at the game from an absolutist viewpoint is realistic, since there have certainly been DI equivalents of that team who have shot that well from 3 for a single game. This is not a "crazy things happen in real life" argument, but rather, a "my understanding of the range of possibilities is much wider than yours." It seems a bit close-minded to suggest it should never happen, because it could happen (maybe only once in a million games, were they to play over and over again), and since it is possible, there's no reason to bemoan it occurring once in a HD sim.  Single-instant anomalies are a part of life, as kowboykoop pointed out - Dallas Braden's perfect game is his parallel to this team's 11-19 shooting performance.

Engine issues, in my view, would concern instances in which these unlikely anomalies repeat themselves. Is this team duplicating that performance with a level of regularity that would be deemed "unrealistic"? If so, there's a problem. If not, I don't see an issue.

I'm sure there are plenty of real-life basketball statistics that you would also say "should never happen," but they do happen.

Take a look at the Miami vs. UNLV game.

Miami playing a -2 defense, holds a SG from UNLV (100 SPD/ 100 PER/ 99 BH, who shot 42% from 3pt on the season) to 0-10 from 3pt. Miami blows away a decent UNLV team 92-39.

Posted by oldwarrior on 6/25/2010 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Take a look at the Miami vs. UNLV game.

Miami playing a -2 defense, holds a SG from UNLV (100 SPD/ 100 PER/ 99 BH, shot 42% from 3pt on the season) to 0-10 from 3pt. Miami blows away a decent UNLV team 92-39.

yeah, his defense is actually better against 3s when playing negative - 30% ish

Posted by pinkeye on 6/25/2010 12:49:00 PM (view original):
a +5 is specifically designed to defend against 3s.

you'll notice i said +5 and defend, not +2 and stop. and there are major differences in both cases.

but what i'm really saying is...if after 1000 games you think a +2 is going to stop teams from hitting 3s, you have no business posting about the 1 game it doesn't.

Given the teams in question and the ratings involved, I would absolutely suggest that a +2 M2M from Miami would shut down the three point shooting of Kent State.

Posted by pinkeye on 6/25/2010 12:49:00 PM (view original):
a +5 is specifically designed to defend against 3s.

you'll notice i said +5 and defend, not +2 and stop. and there are major differences in both cases.

but what i'm really saying is...if after 1000 games you think a +2 is going to stop teams from hitting 3s, you have no business posting about the 1 game it doesn't.

Given the teams in question and the ratings involved, I would absolutely suggest that a +2 M2M from Miami would shut down the three point shooting of Kent State. And yes, I said shut down, not defend. 

And if my 3800 games under my dcy ID are not experience to make that suggestion (since we seem to be calling "experience" into question), then maybe 5000 more under this ID are enough.

Yes, given the teams/players/ratings/IQ's/settings involved in this game, Miami should have smothered Kent State on the perimeter.

Do games like this happen?  Sure.  But to try and suggest that in this instance, a +2 M2M isn't designed to shut down the perimeter, especially with much faster defenders going against pisspoor shooters is just ridiculous.

Posted by emy1013 on 6/25/2010 4:47:00 PM (view original):
And if my 3800 games under my dcy ID are not experience to make that suggestion (since we seem to be calling "experience" into question), then maybe 5000 more under this ID are enough.

Yes, given the teams/players/ratings/IQ's/settings involved in this game, Miami should have smothered Kent State on the perimeter.

Do games like this happen?  Sure.  But to try and suggest that in this instance, a +2 M2M isn't designed to shut down the perimeter, especially with much faster defenders going against pisspoor shooters is just ridiculous.

exactly, games like this happen..

and in their first meeting kent state went 0-9, thats the other end of the spectrum.

i'm not saying +2 was the wrong play at all, its what i would have done. but you can't say +2 is the best way to defend the 3 when there are 3 more notches.

one [or both] of us just has an exaggerated perception of how much effect +/- has in this release, in my opinion and experience, not much at all.

Posted by pinkeye on 6/25/2010 5:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 6/25/2010 4:47:00 PM (view original):
And if my 3800 games under my dcy ID are not experience to make that suggestion (since we seem to be calling "experience" into question), then maybe 5000 more under this ID are enough.

Yes, given the teams/players/ratings/IQ's/settings involved in this game, Miami should have smothered Kent State on the perimeter.

Do games like this happen?  Sure.  But to try and suggest that in this instance, a +2 M2M isn't designed to shut down the perimeter, especially with much faster defenders going against pisspoor shooters is just ridiculous.

exactly, games like this happen..

and in their first meeting kent state went 0-9, thats the other end of the spectrum.

i'm not saying +2 was the wrong play at all, its what i would have done. but you can't say +2 is the best way to defend the 3 when there are 3 more notches.

one [or both] of us just has an exaggerated perception of how much effect +/- has in this release, in my opinion and experience, not much at all.

I don't believe I said anywhere that a +2 was the BEST way to defend against the three.  What I said was that in this particular instance, a +2 should have been more than adequate/sufficient/whatever word you want to use, but nowhere did I say it was the best.

I told a coach this once, he was horrified.  it is opinion,

for a defense set to zero, on average, the engine 'was' set to play 34% defense, all things being equal. 

for -5, approx 42%, for +5 approx 26%, or 34% +/-8% at the extremes (+5/-5)

Offensive 3 pt shooting varies approximately from zero to 68% (34% +/- 34%) against zero. 

Hence, defensive levels have almost no effect (8/34's to be exact) on 3pt shooting vs how good or how hot a shooter is.

for my own curiosity i went and checked, teams are shooting 54% (27-50) against my team this season while ive been set to +5.

including those numbers teams are shooting 32.3% against me on the season.

Posted by emy1013 on 6/25/2010 5:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by pinkeye on 6/25/2010 5:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 6/25/2010 4:47:00 PM (view original):
And if my 3800 games under my dcy ID are not experience to make that suggestion (since we seem to be calling "experience" into question), then maybe 5000 more under this ID are enough.

Yes, given the teams/players/ratings/IQ's/settings involved in this game, Miami should have smothered Kent State on the perimeter.

Do games like this happen?  Sure.  But to try and suggest that in this instance, a +2 M2M isn't designed to shut down the perimeter, especially with much faster defenders going against pisspoor shooters is just ridiculous.

exactly, games like this happen..

and in their first meeting kent state went 0-9, thats the other end of the spectrum.

i'm not saying +2 was the wrong play at all, its what i would have done. but you can't say +2 is the best way to defend the 3 when there are 3 more notches.

one [or both] of us just has an exaggerated perception of how much effect +/- has in this release, in my opinion and experience, not much at all.

I don't believe I said anywhere that a +2 was the BEST way to defend against the three.  What I said was that in this particular instance, a +2 should have been more than adequate/sufficient/whatever word you want to use, but nowhere did I say it was the best.

i wasnt talking about you specifically.

just the term "specifically desgined to defend the perimeter" is a huge oversimplification when its only 70% true

Posted by pinkeye on 6/25/2010 5:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 6/25/2010 5:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by pinkeye on 6/25/2010 5:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 6/25/2010 4:47:00 PM (view original):
And if my 3800 games under my dcy ID are not experience to make that suggestion (since we seem to be calling "experience" into question), then maybe 5000 more under this ID are enough.

Yes, given the teams/players/ratings/IQ's/settings involved in this game, Miami should have smothered Kent State on the perimeter.

Do games like this happen?  Sure.  But to try and suggest that in this instance, a +2 M2M isn't designed to shut down the perimeter, especially with much faster defenders going against pisspoor shooters is just ridiculous.

exactly, games like this happen..

and in their first meeting kent state went 0-9, thats the other end of the spectrum.

i'm not saying +2 was the wrong play at all, its what i would have done. but you can't say +2 is the best way to defend the 3 when there are 3 more notches.

one [or both] of us just has an exaggerated perception of how much effect +/- has in this release, in my opinion and experience, not much at all.

I don't believe I said anywhere that a +2 was the BEST way to defend against the three.  What I said was that in this particular instance, a +2 should have been more than adequate/sufficient/whatever word you want to use, but nowhere did I say it was the best.

i wasnt talking about you specifically.

just the term "specifically desgined to defend the perimeter" is a huge oversimplification when its only 70% true

My mistake.

Couple of things:

1.  oldwarrior mentioned the game we had against UNLV earlier in the season.  For the record, I thought the result of that game was equally ridiculous and I sent in a ticket about it the day it happened.  Of course, that was about 3 or 4 engine tweaks ago when lots of people were reporting bizarre results.  No way should those 2 teams have a 55 point margin.

2.  The 0-9 from the arc in the first Kent game was probably unrealistic as well, but given the teams in question, it's a lot more believable than 11-19.

3.  pinkeye, I will absolutely agree with you that my use of "specifically designed to defend the perimeter" to describe the +2 is an oversimplification so I'll clarify: as emy and john have said, given the relative strengths and weaknesses of the teams involved, the use of a +2/+3 in this situation (remember they shot 5/7 in the second half against a +3) should have been more than adequate to negate any significant effectiveness of Kent St's 3 point shooting, and that is my position on the matter (context, context, context, right dalter?  ).

4.  If oldresorter's comment above (echoed by pinkeye soon thereafter) is even close to correct - and given his track record, I'd be willing to bet it is - it implies that defensive gameplanning is not just limited, but significantly limited in the new release.  Perhaps I misunderstood but I was led to believe that the new release was supposed to put more of an emphasis on all aspects of gameplanning.  If true, I find that very disappointing but hardly surprising.