Why cant I "sell" a player or a prospect? Topic

MikeT23
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I beleive MLB limits the sale to 1m.  Or at least allows such things without a commissioner decision. 

But, of course, that's really irrelevant because MLB doesn't set budgets for teams nor would anyone sell a good player for 1m in HBD.    That would probably fall into the "help a brother out" category where an owner would buy a so-so prospect from his buddy so his buddy could do something with the 1m.  Which, of course, is blatant collusion.
8/2/2010 4:23 PM
joshkvt
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Posted by new on 8/2/2010 2:40:00 PM (view original):
I am hoping for an answer that will shut me up.  So far there has not been an answer that doesnt apply to many other parts of the game.  If the standard is, what can a user do that can be used to commit collusion, ruin a team or damage a world we shouldnt be allowed to do anything.
If you believe that you should be able to sell prospects, then no possible answer will 'shut you up.'

Obviously many owners believe that selling prospects is bad for worlds, or there would not be so many worlds that bar such deals. Allowing the sale of prospects puts owners who just try to field the best possible team season after season in a hole now against one of the teams and later against the other. The fact that many parts of the game are vulnerable to collusion doesn't mean worlds shouldn't proactively try to prevent such damage where they can.
8/3/2010 2:36 AM
steelerstime
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I look at it as a cop out by an owner who is not as capable of managing their teams finances vs other owners. Each team is given the same amount of play money to use. Most owners are able to properly manage the money. Those that NEED extra money obviously feel the need to resort to sell players for money. They didn't properly manage their payroll and need extra $, or need extra cash to bid on an int'l vs another owner who properly managed his $185.

I actually look at it as being incompetent. People begging to be bailed out by selling players/prospects for cash. Reminds me of the scene from the beginning of the Godfather, with the singer crying to Don Vito Corleone. Any volunteers to play the Don Vito character and give the crybabies a slap?
8/3/2010 6:01 AM
kcden
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Posted by MikeT23 on 8/2/2010 2:15:00 PM (view original):
Second, and I assume you will not dispute the First, here's scenario #1:

You have decided that you're leaving a world for whatever reason.  You sell your prospects to your buddy as he has cap space and you want to make one last run. You need the cash for FA.  You take the cash and outbid everyone else for older players by offering it as bonus money(because you can't backload deals due to future payroll restrictions).   You finish however you finish and leave the world.   Your team is old and has no prospects.   Your buddy is loaded for the future.  Without the sale of your prospects, this does not happen.  What recourse does the world have?

And, no, it doesn't have to be collusion although it could be.  You were simply selling your prospects to the highest bidder.  It just so happened that one owner have 40m in cap space so he bought your top 8 prospects.

More to come.
This is the same as your first explanation.  The only reason this would be a problem is that there are no long-term requirements for team ownership.
8/3/2010 8:21 AM
MikeT23
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It does seem pretty similar.   So you don't have to leave the world.  You and a trifecta of owners form a trading/selling bloc, unofficial of course, and spend your days making playoff runs and selling prospects to one another.   Nothing collusive but we know that all of us have trade partners that we deal with more frequently than others. 

8/3/2010 8:28 AM
MikeT23
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And, if selling of prospects is allowed, I'd budget differently(and play differently) in seasons I don't feel I can compete.    I'd be sure to keep 5-10m in unused payroll if I don't think I'm making a playoff run.   I'd just wait until someone needed to sell a prospect and make my offer.   Now, if he deals with someone he's dealt with before instead of me, I think we'll have a problem.   After all, 5m is 5m.  I may not know if you're going to get value for it when I send it your way but I know my 5m is no different than owner B's 5m.
8/3/2010 8:33 AM
csherwood
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Posted by MikeT23 on 8/3/2010 8:28:00 AM (view original):

It does seem pretty similar.   So you don't have to leave the world.  You and a trifecta of owners form a trading/selling bloc, unofficial of course, and spend your days making playoff runs and selling prospects to one another.   Nothing collusive but we know that all of us have trade partners that we deal with more frequently than others. 

I dont agree with that - if I have a need or a stud I want to trade I advertise it. Late in the season if I am looking to make a playoff run, I will comb the rosters of teams that are out of contention for a veteran I may be able to deal for that will help me. The last thing I look at when putting together a trade offer is who I am dealing with.
8/3/2010 9:31 AM
MikeT23
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So you're saying, if I were to check your trade history, there wouldn't be an owner or two that stands out?

I'll be honest, I find that VERY hard to believe.   I didn't think I did it until I checked in one of my worlds.   There were 2-3 that I had made several deals with, another group that I had made a deal or two with and, of course, a pile of owners I never traded with.   It's really pretty simple.   Some owners value players differently.  You're going to be able to trade with them relatively easily(you don't want the same thing).   Some owners pull a hard line and never budge.   If you don't like exactly what they want, you'll never trade with them.   And some owners are very flexible.  When they say "pitching", they mean "pitching" not "this player and this player only".   They are easier to trade with.  
8/3/2010 10:03 AM
MikeT23
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In your 6 seasons in Coop, you made 31 deals.   4 with dudejustice, 2 with 7 other owners and 13 single owner deals.  So, assuming we had the same 31 owners(and we didn't), you ignored 10 owners entirely in trading and did twice as many with one owner as anyone else.   Maybe it was just a coincidence.  Maybe dude was just easier for you to deal with.   Don't know but I have the same sort of pattern in my worlds.    And I know why I deal with one owner more than others and why I never deal with some.
8/3/2010 10:22 AM
csherwood
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I took a look at my other worlds and its pretty much all over theplace. I am in Moneyball with dude as well and have several trades with him...though the mere fact that I trade with one guy more than others doesnt mean much when you are looking at 2-3 extra trades over 8-10 seasons. Maybe we both had matching needs, or maybe dude is more active and sends out more trade offers - sometimes I am not even thinking of making a deal but someone will contact me and propose something and I may pull the trigger. So just because I have a few extra deals with one person doesnt mean I am looking to deal with him.

Maybe other people look to trade because of the owner - I look at the players being shopped and, if they will help my team, I make an offer. Or conversely I will put a player out for offers and review the offers and take the best one. The only thing I can say about looking at the owner is I know a few owners in my worlds that will always try to lowball on offers...but again I dont even look at who is offering until I analyze the offer. And unless the offer I am sent is for an untouchable player (my first place team is not trading the 28 year old defending Cy Young who is under an 8 million a year contract for the next 3 season) or completely out of whack, I will normally try to negotiate and work out a deal if possible.
8/3/2010 2:04 PM
MikeT23
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I'm not saying you have to look at the owner but most of us will trade with those who WE can work with simply because we can work with them.   And, at the end of the day, we trade more frequently with a select few owners.   Nothing collusive, although it could be if we were selling players back and forth, but it just works that way. 
8/3/2010 3:24 PM
tropicana
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I have to admit that I love trading with Mike, and I think that he at least feels at ease in dealing with me.  Generally, he and I both go into a trade knowing what we want and can say, "Hey, we can help each other here," or "Whoa, we're definitely not a match on this one."

I appreciate that because there are a bunch of owners around that you negotiate for a couple days with, get down to the nitty gritty and actually make an offer, and then they say, 1) I don't want to make this trade anymore (or I don't want to trade this/these players any more) or 2) you know, after you offered it, I changed my mind about those guys. Keeping in mind that you've been linking the guys the whole time and these players in your offer were the ones they hand picked.

I appreciate the straightforward. It's why I precisely do go to the same group of owners before making an offer...and when I stray from that group, I generally know what the response will be from those players.

8/3/2010 6:31 PM
MikeT23
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Yeah, I was surprised that we only had 4 deals in MG.   You and ebb were the owners I was thinking about when I posted "When they say "pitching", they mean "pitching" not "this player and this player only".   They are easier to trade with."     I can usually tell within 2-3 exchanges if we'll make it work.   As you said, there are too many owners who'll dance for 2-3 days, drop a dozen names and then say "If I can't have Jimmy Joe, I don't think we can make it happen."
8/3/2010 6:38 PM
plague
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I don't buy any of the long term arguments. If that was the case then veterans for prospect trades would be vetoed, but I have never heard anyone complain about those trades.
8/3/2010 7:39 PM
MikeT23
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Aren't you the guy who said it's OK to traderape a n00b because he didn't ask your opinion before trading?   If so, I don't think what you "buy" is relevant.

8/3/2010 7:47 PM
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Why cant I "sell" a player or a prospect? Topic
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