D1: Return of the Press??? Topic

tianyi7886
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What's your point dahs. Yes, you are right about narcotico running the press for the first 3 peat, but that was before the change when fcp press was dominant. He switched to m2m for a reason...
7/21/2011 9:05 PM
dcy0827
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Maybe he got tired of dominating with the press and wanted a new challenge?  Maybe he really does think M2M is the better defense?  Who knows?  Only Narctico for sure......
7/21/2011 10:50 PM
emy1013
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Just my opinion, and granted I don't pay nearly as much attention as I used to, but I think that right now is about as equal as I can remember all the defenses ever being.  These things seem to run in cycles.  For a long while press teams dominated.  Then the zone became the "it" defense (though not for long).  Now it seems that M2M is in favor.  I think alot of it has to do with coaches noticing certain teams having success running a specific D and rush to try to copy that team's formula for success.  It kind of snowballs from there.  Then someone will break the trend, start winning big with a different D and the rush to copycat them begins.

I will say from personal experience that it's possible to win with ALL the defenses and at least three of the four offenses (I've never had a FB team, even after all these seasons).  I've won NC's running these different combinations:  Mot/Man, Flex/Zone, Flex/Man (2), Tri/Man (3), Mot/FCP, so again, from personal experience, any and all of the O's and D's are viable with the right personnel.  I guess what I'm getting at is, while one offense or defense may seem dominant (okay, except for the press, which even CS admitted was way too strong way back when), they all can all be won with and won with big.  Just my two cents worth.
7/21/2011 11:04 PM
tianyi7886
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Posted by dcy0827 on 7/21/2011 10:50:00 PM (view original):
Maybe he got tired of dominating with the press and wanted a new challenge?  Maybe he really does think M2M is the better defense?  Who knows?  Only Narctico for sure......
Except he made a post saying he made the switch because M2M was better. 
7/21/2011 11:07 PM
emy1013
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I do agree with Tianyi on one point though.  I think M2M is much more consistent than the FCP.  But....I think a good FCP team can be more dominating than a good M2M team.  Works both ways though.  I think a good FCP team can be dominating and a bad one horrible but press teams certainly seem to be alot more "moody" than either of the other two (which goes directly to the heart of the consistency theory/argument). 
7/21/2011 11:12 PM
emy1013
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Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dcy0827 on 7/21/2011 10:50:00 PM (view original):
Maybe he got tired of dominating with the press and wanted a new challenge?  Maybe he really does think M2M is the better defense?  Who knows?  Only Narctico for sure......
Except he made a post saying he made the switch because M2M was better. 
So he thinks it's better.  Doesn't mean it is.  What if Rails or Lostmyth came on here and said that FCP was the best D?  Or Oldresorter/BillyG said they thought that Zones were the best D?  It's just someone's opinion and again, to each his own. 
7/21/2011 11:15 PM
tianyi7886
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Posted by emy1013 on 7/21/2011 11:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dcy0827 on 7/21/2011 10:50:00 PM (view original):
Maybe he got tired of dominating with the press and wanted a new challenge?  Maybe he really does think M2M is the better defense?  Who knows?  Only Narctico for sure......
Except he made a post saying he made the switch because M2M was better. 
So he thinks it's better.  Doesn't mean it is.  What if Rails or Lostmyth came on here and said that FCP was the best D?  Or Oldresorter/BillyG said they thought that Zones were the best D?  It's just someone's opinion and again, to each his own. 
You are not really following this conversation. dahs brings out the point that narcotico won his first 3 consecutive NCs using fcp. I point out that is true, but it was when fcp was the dominant system and narcotico switched to m2m soon after. dcy said what I quoted above, namely, we don't know why he switched to m2m (implying that perhaps, narcotico didn't think it was better). My last post obviously was a response to dcy, saying we know why he switched.
7/21/2011 11:28 PM
emy1013
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Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 11:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 7/21/2011 11:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 11:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dcy0827 on 7/21/2011 10:50:00 PM (view original):
Maybe he got tired of dominating with the press and wanted a new challenge?  Maybe he really does think M2M is the better defense?  Who knows?  Only Narctico for sure......
Except he made a post saying he made the switch because M2M was better. 
So he thinks it's better.  Doesn't mean it is.  What if Rails or Lostmyth came on here and said that FCP was the best D?  Or Oldresorter/BillyG said they thought that Zones were the best D?  It's just someone's opinion and again, to each his own. 
You are not really following this conversation. dahs brings out the point that narcotico won his first 3 consecutive NCs using fcp. I point out that is true, but it was when fcp was the dominant system and narcotico switched to m2m soon after. dcy said what I quoted above, namely, we don't know why he switched to m2m (implying that perhaps, narcotico didn't think it was better). My last post obviously was a response to dcy, saying we know why he switched.
I'm following perfectly fine.  And FYI, emy IS dcy. 
7/21/2011 11:45 PM
ll316
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I've always found the press to be the easiest defense to gameplan for.  The team with the FCP is totally at your mercy...there's no strategy they can really do to gameplan against you. So go ahead and load up on your primary scorers with no fear of a double team or a defensive adjustment to defend them.  It's only gotten easier with the changes designed to take the teeth out of the FCP.
7/22/2011 12:30 PM
coach_billyg
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Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 7:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 7:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 7:22:00 PM (view original):
I didn't define it that way.  It's clearly viable in Wooden because it works.  You can give me reasons why (% of teams running it), but it doesn't change its statistical success.

I have no doubt, based on my knowledge of the engine and recruits generated, that it is easier to win at D3 using press.  You may disagree, but there really isn't a way to prove it.  But it seems very clear to me that the engine is generating a serious lack of players at lower levels who can pass and handle the ball, while still creating high ath/spd/def guys.  
You are forgetting stamina. 65ath/55spd/55def team is great for a D3 press, but you can easily fall short in the stamina category and get blown out against a team running uptempo. And I'm fairly confident to say that a 65ath/55spd/55def m2m team will outperform a similar press team. Potential fouls under the press, huge rebound reduction (I have had 60 ath, 99 reb bigs avg less than 7 reb/game in 25min with the press, while my team was outrebounded for the whole season), and stamina problem makes press teams more easily to upset. 

If you are that confident that the press is overpowered (something you have posted about for the past 6 months), why don't you prove it in action. Get a D3 press team on your other ID and win a few NCs with it. 

And since you want to define Wooden's D3 press as statistical, how do you explain the lack of FCP dominance in the other 9 worlds? So I guess the other 9 worlds are the statistical anomalies, right? And don't say there are more M2M teams in the other worlds, because you just stated the % of teams running a defense shouldn't matter when we just viability or superiority. 

Sure, the m2m team will foul less (probably), but without bh/pass, any team is going to turn the ball over A TON against a 65/55/55 press team.  

Because: (a) I like running man, and I ran it even when press was clearly dominant; and (b) I simply don't have time for another team right now.  It's something I'd like to prove, but even if I did it, I acknowledge it wouldn't be definitive proof anyway.

I don't have any idea.  I'm only familiar with one D3 world.  In that world, there have been some great man teams in the past ten seasons and none have won an NT.  I can't speak to other worlds.  Frankly, my guess is that great coaches could win with any defense, so that's not really where this argument lies for me.  My problem is that without bh/pass, a great man team can lose to a decent-but-not-great press team with ease because there's no way to combat TOs.
its a double-edged sword. press can beat superior teams, but with all the foul trouble/stamina one-two punch games i've seen, i would say press could also easily lose to inferior teams. moreso than any defense i've seen in my tenure. its just simply an inconsistent set now, both ways.
7/22/2011 9:37 PM
kevb
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Has anyone that still runs fullcourt press notice thatyour own fg% has dropped in the past few seasons(even staying stamina fresh)?  My Tulsa team in IBA although not very good cannot shoot above 40% to save their lives.
7/23/2011 9:10 PM
girt25
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It's been months since the engine has been touched.
7/23/2011 10:49 PM
ronm605
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Posted by pinkeye on 7/21/2011 3:26:00 PM (view original):
the press never left
youtu.be/vimZj8HW0Kg
7/24/2011 12:27 PM (edited)
tedlukacs
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Press really never left, as ronm said.   After the new engine came in, people noticed very quickly that the FB-FCP was no longer dominant.  Have checked results several times the past year in Naismith and Wooden.  Almost no human coaches use the FB these days, but my reviews show that FCP actually outperforms man to man in D3 and D2; in D1, honors are about even.  This is true of human and sim teams.  People noticed press teams were fouling more, and abandoned the press in droves.  But it is still viable at all levels, and superior at D2 and D3.
      The zone lags the other two defenses significantly.   Don't know whether that is a factor of the program, or whether most coaches (myself included) simply don't know how to run one effectively. 
7/27/2011 5:53 PM
_hannibal_
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Posted by kevb on 7/23/2011 9:12:00 PM (view original):
Has anyone that still runs fullcourt press notice thatyour own fg% has dropped in the past few seasons(even staying stamina fresh)?  My Tulsa team in IBA although not very good cannot shoot above 40% to save their lives.
There was a change to reduce FG% across board about 3 points (I think in February).
7/28/2011 8:49 AM
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