Jeez... (Recruit rant) Topic

Posted by darnoc29099 on 8/10/2015 7:52:00 AM (view original):
I think more and more bugs in recruiting are popping up. Lately I've had lots of weird issues at D3, like kids on my D3 list rejecting all HV and CV (even if I send a letter with them) and kids on my D2 list (> 70 miles away) giving me immediately recruitable messages but then not accepting any HV or CV.
Almost all the "suspcted" bugs lately have been with scheduling, specifically no off days after the non-conference ends. I submitted a ticket very recently about this and the reply I got was that it sometimes works out...I lazily never did the math because I thought that the admins weren't lazy enough not to do the math, but I could be wrong wrong since I never took the 30 seconds to fact what I was blindly told.

However, just because a somebody is immediately recruitable does not mean they will accept any HV, CV, or promises.
8/10/2015 8:13 AM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 8/10/2015 7:11:00 AM (view original):
Posted by duece_duece on 8/10/2015 6:24:00 AM (view original):
Sorry for the confusion, and just to let you know I'm not pulling this out of my *** here is my post on our Coaches Corner I made later that night.

7/31
11:38 PM duece_duece
Wow I can't believe I signed all 3 of these guys!! WOTS had me listed second on the last 2 and with no more effort they both signed with me??? The last message from both were on the what is listed as behind. The only thing I can think happened ...
7/31
11:38 PM duece_duece
...is the sim schools informed them of their intention to redshirt them but I would have thought I should have recieved a new scholarship message. CRAZY!! I'll take it they're all going to be good and depending on how high the HH's go ...
7/31
11:38 PM duece_duece
...they could be one of my best all round classes ever!! Oh and congrats Biggie, nice to hear you have Millsaps headed in the right direction!!
Are you absolutely sure you put no more effort into either of those players and were listed second after the last WOTSs came out?
This is the effect of considering credit.....it actually happens kinda frequently, Humans get more considering credit than sims........it may also be the effect of prestige, often times the human is a few grades above the simai, probably a combination of both......in a nut shell, if you are willing to risk it, you don't need to actually beat a sim in recruiting, you just need to get close and let the considering credit take over.....I have had the WOTS go from "leaning towards <not me> " to signing with me before with only a handful of HV's put into the kid.
8/10/2015 8:22 AM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 8/10/2015 8:22:00 AM (view original):
Posted by nachopuzzle on 8/10/2015 7:11:00 AM (view original):
Posted by duece_duece on 8/10/2015 6:24:00 AM (view original):
Sorry for the confusion, and just to let you know I'm not pulling this out of my *** here is my post on our Coaches Corner I made later that night.

7/31
11:38 PM duece_duece
Wow I can't believe I signed all 3 of these guys!! WOTS had me listed second on the last 2 and with no more effort they both signed with me??? The last message from both were on the what is listed as behind. The only thing I can think happened ...
7/31
11:38 PM duece_duece
...is the sim schools informed them of their intention to redshirt them but I would have thought I should have recieved a new scholarship message. CRAZY!! I'll take it they're all going to be good and depending on how high the HH's go ...
7/31
11:38 PM duece_duece
...they could be one of my best all round classes ever!! Oh and congrats Biggie, nice to hear you have Millsaps headed in the right direction!!
Are you absolutely sure you put no more effort into either of those players and were listed second after the last WOTSs came out?
This is the effect of considering credit.....it actually happens kinda frequently, Humans get more considering credit than sims........it may also be the effect of prestige, often times the human is a few grades above the simai, probably a combination of both......in a nut shell, if you are willing to risk it, you don't need to actually beat a sim in recruiting, you just need to get close and let the considering credit take over.....I have had the WOTS go from "leaning towards <not me> " to signing with me before with only a handful of HV's put into the kid.
Are you absolutely 100% positely sure this is the effect of considering credit?
8/10/2015 8:30 AM
Absolutely, like 82%!
8/10/2015 8:34 AM
considering credit is at least a reasonable hypothesis

of course, beyond your competition with the SIM, being in a battle with a SIM tells other coaches something about where your money is being spent and can expose other vulnerabilities - so it MAY be wise to blow the SIM entirely off the recruit.....if you can....
8/10/2015 9:16 AM
Claro que si!
8/10/2015 10:03 AM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 8/10/2015 10:03:00 AM (view original):
Claro que si!
uhg, early 80s synthpop is the worst...not even molly could fix that on her best day.
8/10/2015 10:20 AM (edited)
"Don't even think about messing with Pinball Cha Cha.  Those vocals would seduce even the staunchest homophobe.".......wait, what were we talking about?
8/10/2015 10:39 AM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 8/10/2015 10:39:00 AM (view original):
"Don't even think about messing with Pinball Cha Cha.  Those vocals would seduce even the staunchest homophobe.".......wait, what were we talking about?
idk, all those mustaches, saxophones, sweat, and claymation seemed pretty legit to me....wait, are we talkin about the same thing?
8/10/2015 11:10 AM
before i forget - OP - you should absolutely send a ticket about this ASAP!! and also duece. see below for why

TJ, why do you think humans get more considering credit? its interesting, but i also don't think its true.

this is an interesting exchange, im not 100% sure what to make of it! however, i think we should all consider another known bug which has come up many times (there's at least a dozen threads on it over the last 5 years).

sometimes, human schools get ahead of sim schools, are ahead in scholarship and on WOTS - and then lose! no redshirting, no pulling scholarships, no warning, the guy just signs with the sim.

this has come up too many times to be written off as an HD user misunderstanding - I was pretty confident it was an HD user misunderstanding, but after walking through like 5 guys through the line of questioning, im 100% convinced its a real issue. also because multiple (at least 3 i think) of those guys did go on to send CS a ticket and seble responded that he really didn't know why the player signed with the sim. we asked if sims do more effort on the player later, and seble said no - sims will do effort on a player up front, and then later he added logic to do effort on more players later, to fill the remaining openings - but that the sim will never do anything on a player after the first cycle in which the sim interacts with the player.

i also sent a ticket to seble shortly after one of these, when i was trying to figure out what else we could have missed, what might be causing the above. i asked him about considering credit, the nature of how it was applied, and if it was possible considering credit could ever cause a school to come from behind and win - in general and specifically with respect to sims and humans, which was really what we were discussing. he explained the model sort of and in a follow up agreed that based on the info he provided, there should be no way for considering credit to ever cause the order of schools (leader to non leader) to flip. considering credit is basically applied per cycle (maybe not every cycle), and is a straight % increase on current effort. it doesn't matter when you put that effort in or whatever, its just based on the effort at that point in time.

anyway, i have to think these two cases are related - both relate to sim / human battles, both relate to situations where the battles could reasonably be considered to be close, both result in players signing with schools in violation of both scholarship messages and WOTS. its the only two issues i've ever heard of where the WOTS order doesn't apply - and im pretty confident that WOTS order is as good as gold. i believe in this case, the player was legitimately leaning towards the sim, and something in the decision making process is buggy and resulted in the player signing with the less desirable school. i think the 2 guys with these problems could potentially get BOTH issues cleared up if they send in this info and reference the other problem where the sim is the unexpected winner, knowing the problem goes both ways (if it really does, i could be way off on this one, just a theory) would be hugely valuable from a debugging standpoint.

anyway, ill stop rambling... but i don't think we need to go back and reconsider WOTS and scholarship messages and all that (i've sort of been down that road with the stuff that happened previously). also just to mention im not sure if player one has say 1001 points of effort (after adjusting for prestige) and player 2 has 1000, that player 1 will always win. i think if the difference is enough, its 100% deterministic, but in an almost-tie, maybe its a dice roll?
8/10/2015 12:45 PM
What probably happened here is that the SIM attempted to fill all their openings with the 2nd push so even though it was leading in a battle for this recruit it would still attempt to sign enough recruits to fill all of its openings.  Once those recruits signed, it would of been dropped from consideration.  I had this occur just last recruiting cycle as I just put enough effort to take the lead and was holding back funds for rollover and expected the battle to last to the end of recruiting but the SIM then went ahead and filled it scholarships and he signed way earlier.

When battling a SIM, all you need to do is to be close enough to last until the end of signings (assuming you didn't jump on a SIM recruit during its 2nd push after signings).  This will NOT work with a human coach since they'll likely know they are leading the fight and not fill all their scholarships (unless they go brain dead).

WOTS is always correct showing who's leading in effort although it only updates every 12 hours so it might lag behind if any of the parties involved put in further effort.
8/10/2015 12:52 PM
All I can tell you is that I have signed multiple players when I was trailing vs a SIM (sometimes "leading towards") without putting more effort in.
8/10/2015 2:08 PM
Posted by buddhagamer on 8/10/2015 12:52:00 PM (view original):
What probably happened here is that the SIM attempted to fill all their openings with the 2nd push so even though it was leading in a battle for this recruit it would still attempt to sign enough recruits to fill all of its openings.  Once those recruits signed, it would of been dropped from consideration.  I had this occur just last recruiting cycle as I just put enough effort to take the lead and was holding back funds for rollover and expected the battle to last to the end of recruiting but the SIM then went ahead and filled it scholarships and he signed way earlier.

When battling a SIM, all you need to do is to be close enough to last until the end of signings (assuming you didn't jump on a SIM recruit during its 2nd push after signings).  This will NOT work with a human coach since they'll likely know they are leading the fight and not fill all their scholarships (unless they go brain dead).

WOTS is always correct showing who's leading in effort although it only updates every 12 hours so it might lag behind if any of the parties involved put in further effort.
oh thats interesting... did you guys (who just beat the sims out) happen to notice if the sim filled their spots without the guy in question? you can still check now after the fact although if they are full now it doesnt necessarily mean they were when the guy signed.

that would be really cool if thats whats causing all this
8/10/2015 3:38 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 8/10/2015 3:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by buddhagamer on 8/10/2015 12:52:00 PM (view original):
What probably happened here is that the SIM attempted to fill all their openings with the 2nd push so even though it was leading in a battle for this recruit it would still attempt to sign enough recruits to fill all of its openings.  Once those recruits signed, it would of been dropped from consideration.  I had this occur just last recruiting cycle as I just put enough effort to take the lead and was holding back funds for rollover and expected the battle to last to the end of recruiting but the SIM then went ahead and filled it scholarships and he signed way earlier.

When battling a SIM, all you need to do is to be close enough to last until the end of signings (assuming you didn't jump on a SIM recruit during its 2nd push after signings).  This will NOT work with a human coach since they'll likely know they are leading the fight and not fill all their scholarships (unless they go brain dead).

WOTS is always correct showing who's leading in effort although it only updates every 12 hours so it might lag behind if any of the parties involved put in further effort.
oh thats interesting... did you guys (who just beat the sims out) happen to notice if the sim filled their spots without the guy in question? you can still check now after the fact although if they are full now it doesnt necessarily mean they were when the guy signed.

that would be really cool if thats whats causing all this
Yes, I was recruiting versus Miami who had 8 openings this past recruiting session.  I was battling for a 5 star recruit they grabbed in the first batch of recruits.  Once I was down to my final opening, I just pushed in enough cash to take the lead in order to try to get maximum rollover.  I expected to have to wait a good day or two until the recruit signed but then I noticed the SIM then ended up recruiting for all 8 openings (thus having 9 recruits considering him) and then shortly thereafter, my recruit signed (this was maybe a cycle or two after the normal definitely leading recruits signed).  

Since I just pushed in enough to barely take the lead (33K for 25 CVs so it definitely not cheap), I expected to sit for a while and definitely didn't have to.

None of Miami's roster right now looks like a walk-on and I know for a fact they were full the moment my guy signed (and I'm fairly certain they have 9 considering them the cycle after only having the 1 x 5 star considering them just after signings started).
8/10/2015 4:44 PM (edited)
Here's the timeline for my recruiting effort:

prior to the start of signings I put in 14 CVs (I had appeared on the consideration list after 12 CVs but added 2 more in case of consideration credit would push me off).

At start of signings (8PM), I fill all of my other openings so I push in an additonal 11 CVs.

11PM, get scholarship message I'm now leading.  FSS shortly thereafter indicates he's struggling but OSU is listed first indicating I'm now leading as well.

11AM the following day, most of the definitely leading battles resolve.  I notice Miami is now recruiting replacement recruits and have 9 considering him.

The next cycle (2PM) I get message from AD that the 5 star signs with me. Miami has a full roster filled with 12 players.

8/10/2015 4:58 PM (edited)
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Jeez... (Recruit rant) Topic

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