Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 12/08/2009How is it more complex now? You can't get a player better then his potential, it is limiting, how is limiting player development and taking choices away from a coach making it more complex?

I don't see how you don't get it. Its not about the max cap or anything like that and I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. Its the fact its no longer a set and forget type thing. You can have the same player with 2 different practice plans. Coach A can hit his 'cap' by his end of JR season and coach B hits it by middle of his SO season. That is something that goes on now. Obviously coach B has a better player for longer because of the practice plans he set. This was not the case before, making them much more important in todays game.



Under the old system coach A would have to totally waste his minutes to get a player a full seasons worth of improvement behind his twin. Practice minutes were much more of a cup-cake type system back then then they are now. Coaches who figure them out to get the most bang for there buck are rewarded way more then they ever were before potential. It is no longer a plug, set, save, watch your player hit 80+ in ever area. You gotta adjust as you go to get the maximum, fastest growth out of each player. We are not trying to say you'll go above it, but certainly if you can get a team maxed out on average by the mid SO season that is a hell of a lot better then until there JR season.




Everyone is going to max out, just like everyone was going to hit 80+ under the old system. Its about when they max out which makes them important. If you can have div III guards hit the 80+ by SO season (still end same as the SR's who hit around there) then thats a huge advantage. Under the old system that stuff didn't happen because they would go up at the same rate, but with potential if you do it right you can get much faster growth then another coach even with the same player.

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If you look at my team, I'm mostly giving them 12 minutes of practice for each category. It's my belief since potential was added, there isn't much of a difference between 12 and 20 minutes of practice.

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wiz, im not sure thats true... that you need to put 7-10 minutes to maintain capped out ratings.

for some reason, intended or not, it seems like capped ratings never go down, even with zero practice. or at least they go down very little like a point a season or so

im trying to figure out how people can have such polar opposite opinions on this issue.

maybe it has to do with the divsion and level that you mainly play at?

for high D1, it has gotten rediculous. its not unusual to have 7 or 8 players that are maxed out in nearly every category.

so you are sitting here with these 130 minutes and you can increase O and D a bit, but you cant go really crazy because your frosh still need thier skill practice, meanwhile, your upperclasmen bigmen are getting 35 minutes od ballhandling practice in the hopes that you can improve them from bh5 to bh10, wheeee. ;-)

maybe you guys who disagree are talking about different levels or divisions. i know it is a little better for my D3 team, but i still feel i had a lot more choices. control in the old days.

i dont think the old way was perfect, but we seble really needs to figure out how to get us back to a point where pracitce plans are importatn tools for all divisions and levels. i think.

Quote: Originally Posted By furry_nipps on 12/08/2009

Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 12/08/2009How is it more complex now? You can't get a player better then his potential, it is limiting, how is limiting player development and taking choices away from a coach making it more complex?

I don't see how you don't get it. Its not about the max cap or anything like that and I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. Its the fact its no longer a set and forget type thing. You can have the same player with 2 different practice plans. Coach A can hit his 'cap' by his end of JR season and coach B hits it by middle of his SO season. That is something that goes on now. Obviously coach B has a better player for longer because of the practice plans he set. This was not the case before, making them much more important in todays game.



Under the old system coach A would have to totally waste his minutes to get a player a full seasons worth of improvement behind his twin. Practice minutes were much more of a cup-cake type system back then then they are now. Coaches who figure them out to get the most bang for there buck are rewarded way more then they ever were before potential. It is no longer a plug, set, save, watch your player hit 80+ in ever area. You gotta adjust as you go to get the maximum, fastest growth out of each player. We are not trying to say you'll go above it, but certainly if you can get a team maxed out on average by the mid SO season that is a hell of a lot better then until there JR season.




Everyone is going to max out, just like everyone was going to hit 80+ under the old system. Its about when they max out which makes them important. If you can have div III guards hit the 80+ by SO season (still end same as the SR's who hit around there) then thats a huge advantage. Under the old system that stuff didn't happen because they would go up at the same rate, but with potential if you do it right you can get much faster growth then another coach even with the same player.

That is the very complete 100% difference that was introduced with FSS, to say otherwise is completely disregarding facts. Your arguments do not hold water, you are right by saying that you could 'more easily' get players where you wanted and the reason for that was because there was no cap.

And it was not a linear development curve in the old potential system, there were absolutely specific ratings ranges where you got more bang for your buck.

I guess I don't understand how people perceive the old system as simply being set the practice minutes and forget them because eventually all guards will hit 80/80/80.

What I'm interpreting from "post-potential practice settings are more important" viewpoint, is now if you dedicate more minutes to a certain category, that category will reach it's maximum potential earlier in the players career.

I'm not sure why that's more important than in the past. If pre-potential was boring and you put in 20-20-20 min and the guard reaches 80/80/80 by his senior season, you could always put in 25-20-15 and the same guard would reach 90-80-70 by his senior season.

I guess I mix the flexibility. If you planned and determined your needs seasons in advance, you could set the practice minutes to anticipate the desired need. Maybe your depth at SG will require one of the SG to play some SF in a few seasons and you wanted to beef up the REB/LP numbers a bit.

Quote: Originally Posted By oldwarrior on 12/09/2009
I guess I don't understand how people perceive the old system as simply being set the practice minutes and forget them because eventually all guards will hit 80/80/80.

What I'm interpreting from "post-potential practice settings are more important" viewpoint, is now if you dedicate more minutes to a certain category, that category will reach it's maximum potential earlier in the players career.

I'm not sure why that's more important. If pre-potential was boring and you put in 20-20-20 min and the guard reaches 80/80/80 by his senior season, you could always put in 25-20-15 and the same guard would reach 90-80-70 by his senior season.

I guess I mix the flexibility. If you planned and determined your needs seasons in advance, you could set the practice minutes to anticipate the desired need. Maybe your depth at SG will require one of the SG to play some SF in a few seasons and you wanted to beef up the REB/LP numbers a bit.

Agreed there and that once it reaches that # it is not going to improve anymore. That is just how it is, I can't understand how that is more flexible.

Quote: Originally posted by oldave on 12/09/2009wiz,  im not sure thats true... that you need to put 7-10 minutes to maintain capped out ratings.for some reason, intended or not,  it seems like capped ratings never go down,  even with zero practice.  or at least they go down very little like a point a season or so

You're correct, you still need 7-10 minutes to maintain maxed out ratings. Here was my point. Hypothetically, let's say you need 1,500 practice minutes in a particular skill to "max out".

If you have them use 25 minutes of practice per skill, you will reach max potential at the end of their sophomore season. But then you would need to use up an additional 10 minutes of practice time for the next 60 games to maintain the ratings. That's about 600 extra minutes, where you could achieve the same result with only 1500 minutes of practice time.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the strategy behind putting a whole bunch of minutes into a skill, however, since potential was added, I haven't seen anything significant from 12 to 20 minutes of practice.

Quote: Originally Posted By thewizard2 on 12/09/2009

Quote: Originally posted by oldave on 12/09/2009
wiz, im not sure thats true... that you need to put 7-10 minutes to maintain capped out ratings.

for some reason, intended or not, it seems like capped ratings never go down, even with zero practice. or at least they go down very little like a point a season or so

You're correct, you still need 7-10 minutes to maintain maxed out ratings. Here was my point. Hypothetically, let's say you need 1,500 practice minutes in a particular skill to "max out".

If you have them use 25 minutes of practice per skill, you will reach max potential at the end of their sophomore season. But then you would need to use up an additional 10 minutes of practice time for the next 60 games to maintain the ratings. That's about 600 extra minutes, where you could achieve the same result with only 1500 minutes of practice time.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the strategy behind putting a whole bunch of minutes into a skill, however, since potential was added, I haven't seen anything significant from 12 to 20 minutes of practice

You forget about diminishing returns after 20 practice minutes.

Actually, the old Admin stated it was between 20-25 minutes, unless there is new information.

i find this quite interesting, I have not paid real much attention to practice planning since potential, to me, the only time it seems to matter is in low WE guys, hi WE guys max out for me sometime mid junior year, all 12 categories. after that i have already put 40 into rebounding, or something odd, just to see, and sometimes have squeezed a point out.

are some of you guys saying improvement does not differ between 7-10 practice minutes and 16-20, I guess if so that would mean diminiwhing returns starts at 7 or 10????

are some of you saying capped out skills do not regress if set to zero practice?

are you guys who think there is a new adv to be had, saying the adv is in what to max out first in hi we guys, or how to build low we guys?

if 7-10 is the diminishing returns level, why would the new way be more strategic, since surely at this level, we all should be able to max out guys at everything?

finally, one coach told me he liked pot because he can improve defense, i told him back that change could have been made without potential, but i still tend to agree with him, seems everything but ft grades improve in relation to each other well - as far as i can tell, ft grades are very hard to move more than 1 full grade over the life of the recruit, which is probably 1/3 the movement of the good old days

For Off/Def IQ grades it appears there are diminishing returns over 10 minutes.

They're slight, maybe only 10% or so for minutes 11-15, but there is a dropoff.

I believe what tarek was saying is not that diminishing returns begin at 20 or 25, but the benefit of minutes over 25 have such a small impact, that practice time may be spent better elsewhere.