i like the change, i feel that unless there is an injury, a starting pitcher would never throw less than 40 pitches in RL. Use relivers as relivers and starters as sterters/long relivers and there shouldn't be a problem.

1. I do not understand the "courtesy" argument. Am I really supposed to concede platoon advantage because of some RL tradition? There is no rule in baseball about announcing your SP and there's certainly a rule about how many batters a guy is required to throw - 1. An announced pitcher must face 1 batter. That's the real life rule. I've had to do the "5 pitch T4A, real SP pitch count T4B" because of fatigue or matchup or what have you. I usually tell the other owner but I'm not required to tell the other owner. 

2. Starting pitchers in real life aren't required to throw 40 pitches and I see no reason HBD pitchers should be forced to do so either. A pull rating of 5 isn't a guarantee that your guy was going to get yanked before real damage could be done. But setting the TPC to "none" and the MPC to the actual limit you wanted to impose, with a pull rating of 4, DID get an SP pulled in the first or second inning before major damage could be done. 

3. This change to the game engine will make durable SP the single most valuable commodity in the game. That's a significant change only because the low DUR SP have been incredibly de-valued by this change. More short-fatigue starts, more pitches thrown...The unintended consequence of this change is going to crush many of the previously valuable "tweeners". 

4. It devalues RP in general. LRA got less important and especially the rare 60/40 guys who could give you 150+ innings when the SP was pulled early. 

Another drawback to the change is the removal of the ability to have a SP "take one for the team". When dealing with unexpected fatigue or after having clinched a playoff spot, I'd often started my Mopop man with a TPC or 145 or 150 and MPC of none, hoping for him to stay out there on the mound as long as it took to throw a CG (thereby allowing guys to rest). An (unintended?) impact of this change is that there is no longer a none option for the MPC of SP, with 150 as the max.

Posted by soxfan121 on 6/24/2010 11:41:00 AM (view original):
1. I do not understand the "courtesy" argument. Am I really supposed to concede platoon advantage because of some RL tradition? There is no rule in baseball about announcing your SP and there's certainly a rule about how many batters a guy is required to throw - 1. An announced pitcher must face 1 batter. That's the real life rule. I've had to do the "5 pitch T4A, real SP pitch count T4B" because of fatigue or matchup or what have you. I usually tell the other owner but I'm not required to tell the other owner. 

2. Starting pitchers in real life aren't required to throw 40 pitches and I see no reason HBD pitchers should be forced to do so either. A pull rating of 5 isn't a guarantee that your guy was going to get yanked before real damage could be done. But setting the TPC to "none" and the MPC to the actual limit you wanted to impose, with a pull rating of 4, DID get an SP pulled in the first or second inning before major damage could be done. 

3. This change to the game engine will make durable SP the single most valuable commodity in the game. That's a significant change only because the low DUR SP have been incredibly de-valued by this change. More short-fatigue starts, more pitches thrown...The unintended consequence of this change is going to crush many of the previously valuable "tweeners". 

4. It devalues RP in general. LRA got less important and especially the rare 60/40 guys who could give you 150+ innings when the SP was pulled early. 

3 and 4 are pretty much nonsense.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/24/2010 7:48:00 AM (view original):
That's a problem with the sequence of events in determining the next starter, leppy.    I sent a ticket about it 2-3 years ago.  WifS has no desire to check injury/fatigue recovery before assigning the next pitcher.

It's a problem that now has no recourse.

Posted by antonsirius on 6/24/2010 12:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by soxfan121 on 6/24/2010 11:41:00 AM (view original):
1. I do not understand the "courtesy" argument. Am I really supposed to concede platoon advantage because of some RL tradition? There is no rule in baseball about announcing your SP and there's certainly a rule about how many batters a guy is required to throw - 1. An announced pitcher must face 1 batter. That's the real life rule. I've had to do the "5 pitch T4A, real SP pitch count T4B" because of fatigue or matchup or what have you. I usually tell the other owner but I'm not required to tell the other owner. 

2. Starting pitchers in real life aren't required to throw 40 pitches and I see no reason HBD pitchers should be forced to do so either. A pull rating of 5 isn't a guarantee that your guy was going to get yanked before real damage could be done. But setting the TPC to "none" and the MPC to the actual limit you wanted to impose, with a pull rating of 4, DID get an SP pulled in the first or second inning before major damage could be done. 

3. This change to the game engine will make durable SP the single most valuable commodity in the game. That's a significant change only because the low DUR SP have been incredibly de-valued by this change. More short-fatigue starts, more pitches thrown...The unintended consequence of this change is going to crush many of the previously valuable "tweeners". 

4. It devalues RP in general. LRA got less important and especially the rare 60/40 guys who could give you 150+ innings when the SP was pulled early. 

3 and 4 are pretty much nonsense.

+1

The reason for the rule change is clear. We cannot make in-game adjustments. IRL, if a manager were to throw out a rh pitcher for 5 pitches, or 1 inning,and then bring in a rightie, the opposing manager could adjust and put back in his left handed hitting slugger. The only people ****** off are those who want to game the system. THe spring training argument is weak as well. All you have to do is start your scrubs and put everyone behind him on a limtted pitch count.

Posted by dmurphy104 on 6/24/2010 12:50:00 PM (view original):
The reason for the rule change is clear. We cannot make in-game adjustments. IRL, if a manager were to throw out a rh pitcher for 5 pitches, or 1 inning,and then bring in a rightie, the opposing manager could adjust and put back in his left handed hitting slugger. The only people ****** off are those who want to game the system. THe spring training argument is weak as well. All you have to do is start your scrubs and put everyone behind him on a limtted pitch count.

And IRL, the original manager could bring in a LH pitcher to face the LH hitting slugger who apparently sits on the bench against all LH. There are tons of things that happen or can be done in RL that we can't do here.

I think part of the problem, and this may stem from many things, including the relatively high number of players/prospects generated with absurd splits, is that HBD owners somehow feel entitled to a platoon advantage. Guess what? If you really were in favor of "realism" you'd be howling about that too.

How many ML teams run a strict platoon at 3 positions? If, in RL, some team had such a group of players who could *only* hit pitchers who threw with a particular hand, it would be good strategy to start one handed pitcher and bring in his opposite. Let the opposing manager bring his specialists in after the 1st inning. Manager 1 has given up a single LH RP. Manager 2 has given up 3 bats off the bench.

Posted by soxfan121 on 6/24/2010 11:41:00 AM (view original):
1. I do not understand the "courtesy" argument. Am I really supposed to concede platoon advantage because of some RL tradition? There is no rule in baseball about announcing your SP and there's certainly a rule about how many batters a guy is required to throw - 1. An announced pitcher must face 1 batter. That's the real life rule. I've had to do the "5 pitch T4A, real SP pitch count T4B" because of fatigue or matchup or what have you. I usually tell the other owner but I'm not required to tell the other owner. 

2. Starting pitchers in real life aren't required to throw 40 pitches and I see no reason HBD pitchers should be forced to do so either. A pull rating of 5 isn't a guarantee that your guy was going to get yanked before real damage could be done. But setting the TPC to "none" and the MPC to the actual limit you wanted to impose, with a pull rating of 4, DID get an SP pulled in the first or second inning before major damage could be done. 

3. This change to the game engine will make durable SP the single most valuable commodity in the game. That's a significant change only because the low DUR SP have been incredibly de-valued by this change. More short-fatigue starts, more pitches thrown...The unintended consequence of this change is going to crush many of the previously valuable "tweeners". 

4. It devalues RP in general. LRA got less important and especially the rare 60/40 guys who could give you 150+ innings when the SP was pulled early. 

No, you would not be required to tell the other owner.  But, you are trying to gain a platoon advantage blindly, based entirely upon the system's limitations and it's not what a real platoon advantage is about.  That's why it's "gaming the system".   That's why WIS instituted this change.  It's not the intent of the game.  In RL, the manager knows who's starting because the starting pitcher is announced.  They go through long-toss, bullpens, etc.  It's abundantly clear during game preparation who the starter is.  If a manager was planning to pull their starter after 5 pitches in RL, they wouldn't bother with the 5 pitches to begin with.  And if they do change the starter at the last minute, the opposing manager can always 'scratch' a guy from the lineup before the cards are given to the ump.  This is not an option for us.

Gaining a platoon advantage by your PC target is 'gaming the system', pure and simple.  It's obvious by the change that the programmers don't like it either.  If you need to use it because you want to change the starter because of the situation (i.e. a 2-2 vs. a 3-1 playoff series), that's where courtesy comes into play.  Doing it to game the system is bogus.  Just because it was possible to do doesn't make it right.