After rattling off a couple of good days with a bunch of 4-2's I pull off a nice 0-6 in the PM today with four shutouts.  fffffffffffffff

WHY does this happen - you have a well rested bullpen, you are winning 2-1, your settings are "only use mopup when losing" and THEY bring in your 16% fatigued mopup guy to blow the game???????   (Lg 5, 12/21 PM2 game)

Santa brought me a 6-0 update for Christmas.  Thanks, Santa!

tonites pm2 games = 0-6; 2-1, 3-1, 5-3, 3-2, 3-2, 4-3 = at least I got 4 more 1-run losses to look at right?

Posted by mildnhazy on 12/6/2011 9:48:00 PM (view original):
Not sure what to say.  I have 1300ip at Petco too and my staff is trashed.

I suppose in your example above, the higher avg and opb may play a factor in the 80mil league.  I don't think the higher slg would result in more baserunners which would be the factor in fatigue.

That being said, I think it is possible that my team simply suffers from not having a mop up guy or two.  I seriously doubt there is actually a bug but it is interesting that so many teams in the league are having problems.

I take back what I said.
Either something in this league is seriously wrong or what schwarze says about 100-200ip pitchers having their fatigue treated differently in the sim is glaringly obvious.
I have NEVER had the fatigue issues I am currently having with my 80mil team.  1300ip at Petco in an 80mil league should be plenty.  Heck, I only have 1277 in the 90mil league and I am having zero issues in Citizens Bank. 
We are at the 2/3rds mark at this point and some of my pitchers in the 80mil league are barely at their RL IP targets and are severely fatigued.  This is not the case in the 90mil league where basically all of my pitchers are over their RL targets and are not fatigued.
I sure wish I knew about this glitch before putting this team together....this team is single handedly ******* me over in round 2.

Posted by mildnhazy on 1/1/2012 10:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mildnhazy on 12/6/2011 9:48:00 PM (view original):
Not sure what to say.  I have 1300ip at Petco too and my staff is trashed.

I suppose in your example above, the higher avg and opb may play a factor in the 80mil league.  I don't think the higher slg would result in more baserunners which would be the factor in fatigue.

That being said, I think it is possible that my team simply suffers from not having a mop up guy or two.  I seriously doubt there is actually a bug but it is interesting that so many teams in the league are having problems.

I take back what I said.
Either something in this league is seriously wrong or what schwarze says about 100-200ip pitchers having their fatigue treated differently in the sim is glaringly obvious.
I have NEVER had the fatigue issues I am currently having with my 80mil team.  1300ip at Petco in an 80mil league should be plenty.  Heck, I only have 1277 in the 90mil league and I am having zero issues in Citizens Bank. 
We are at the 2/3rds mark at this point and some of my pitchers in the 80mil league are barely at their RL IP targets and are severely fatigued.  This is not the case in the 90mil league where basically all of my pitchers are over their RL targets and are not fatigued.
I sure wish I knew about this glitch before putting this team together....this team is single handedly ******* me over in round 2.

I remember reading somewhere that pitching fatigue is based on both total # of pitches (which I think there is a forumula for) and there is also appearance fatigue (based on the # of games the pitcher actually appeared).  Is it possible due to the reduced # of games (most of these sub-200 IP pitchers are that way due to injury and not low IP per appearance) that trying to use them over the entire season is having a bigger effect than say using a normal 200+ IP pitcher (who would have more appearances)?

i.e. have 6 x 200 IP pitchers would give less fatigue than having 12 x 100 IP pitchers due to the # of appearances even though both have 1200 IP total.

I truly think that mght be the case.  When I use three 330-IP starting pitchers, they have less fatigue than four 250-IP starting pitchers, which in turn have less fatigue than five 200-IP starting pitchers, etc.

Based on a number of teams I've run where where I use starters 80-90 times in relief I'm about 95% sure that appearance fatigue is not A Thing.  As one example, I used '14 Dutch Leonard in 93 games (24 starts) at 100m in round one, over 256 IP, and he had no fatigue issues at all. 

Whatever's going on in the 80m league I'm pretty sure appearance fatigue is not the issue.  Frankly, it's such an isolated case that I've never run into before that I have trouble chalking it up to being anything but an outlier. 

I was also pretty sceptical about appearance fatigue, because it wouldn't explain what happened with other teams. In the 90M league I'm using Ben Sheets about every second game, and he's showing less fatigue than I would have guessed.

But I wonder if the following (more complicated) theory is correct. Maybe the more games a player appears in, the more effect you see from going over pitch counts. That is, if you keep a pitcher under his assigne pitch count, he stays at 100% (unless he's worked the previous game). But if you go over the pitch count, how much fatigue he shows depends on (among other things) how much he has been used.

Here's one data point for that. In the 80M league, I have Charlie Smith sitting at 83% fatigue. But he's only 9% over pitch allocation. I don't think, in general, that 9% over should drop you that far. But he has been in a lot of games - 24, compared to 8 in real life. So maybe that explains why he has been dropped so far.

Having said that, I think the real problem is that most of us underestimated how much better teams are when you don't have many restrictions on who plays. I bet that most of the teams in this 80M league would beat most of the teams in the 100M league in round one most of the time. In part that's because dropping restrictions on who plays is like giving you more money to play with, and in part it's because the owners here are better.  (There was a league recently which compared open teams to single-season single-team teams, and I think having the freedom to choose your own players was worth something like $15-$20M in cap space.)

Would any of us tried to get by with 1250 IP (and no mopups) in the 100M league; or have been surprised if that led to fatigue problems? I doubt it, and I think that's really the heart of the problem, though perhaps some appearance fatigue issues are making things worse.

Your first post is interesting brianjw....and I also agree that since the competition is much higher in round 2 you would need more IP than the norm.

But I looked at my '19 Nehf - he is at 84.7 ip.  He is averaging 14.7 pitches per inning.  Doesn't seem like anything should be out of the ordinary
 - basically right on pace to hit his RL 119ip.  The thing is he is currently at 85 (87) and in fatigue hell.

It is very frustrating to see my team suffer such extreme fatigue when a lot of my pitchers are going to barely hit their RL total IPs.

Another reason I think the 80mil league is showing fatigue like this is because most of the choice 80mil pitchers are low k, low walk pitchers who would have less pitches available to them from a fatigue standpoint than the high k pitchers in the 90mil league....perhaps 14.7 pitchers per inning is high for a low walk, low k guy.......perhaps this is the only explanation necessary.

I agree with the low K low BB theory. I think higher K and BB pitchers get more pitches allocated to them than they need, so they can pitch more IP.

Credit to elbirdo for the pitching formula (use stats from the drafting center):

So I'm wondering if the higher you exceed the projected allocated # of appearances a pitcher has, the more fatigue he gets.

i.e. A starter converted reliever (one who only has a few appearances but is being used in relief role) will get more penalized than a standard reliever who had much more appearances but both pitchers had the same overall # of IP (and all other stats being the same).

Finally, after a horrible drought, some wins in the last 4 sessions; 5-1, 5-1, 2-4, 6-0...  need more of that just to get back to .500!