35 pt swing. Same teams Topic

Quote: Originally Posted By dahsdebater on 4/19/2010
Ok colonels, I just designed an experiment you can't argue with because it uses random.org, your perfect mecca of randomness. I looked at my past few games and see that each team averages something near 30 shots per half. You always say the game is too complicated. So I set this up to be as simple as possible. Two teams, each gets 30 shots each in 2 halves. Every player is a 50% shooter, so each shot has a 50/50 chance of going in. Nobody takes any 3s. I used random.org's coin toss algorithm to simulate each shot. Heads it went in, tails it didn't. Can't get much simpler than that.

Team A, first half: 11 heads
Team B, first half: 18 heads
Team A, second half: 13 heads
Team B, second half: 21 heads

I was actually hoping there'd be a nice halftime swing since it would fit better in this thread. Didn't happen. Nevertheless, team B won this game by 30 points, 78-48, in spite of the fact that they were completely evenly matched. 30 point differential between two evenly matched teams? Uh oh, that can't be right. Random.org must be broken.

The fact is, the sample sizes we're dealing with are too small to expect incredibly consistent results. There's a very good chance that if you simulate that same game that team A will win by at least 12 or 14. That's a 40+ point swing between 2 games, which you of course would insist is absolutely ridiculous and indicative of a lack of true randomness. In reality, you don't need clustering to get disparate results over 30 or even 60 events.

Very nice experiment. I just don't trust WIS for a multitude of reasons (past problems in NBA, NFL, Racing sims, arrogant admins/customer service, lazy explanations, etc.) and to a degree that's poisoned my experience/viewpoint here. Despite all that, I still enjoy HD and the untimely bizarre results aren't enough to force me out. If I ever leave, it will probably be due to boredom, not because of anything the sim does/did to me, but I guess that's yet to be seen.

Rightly or wrongly, I'll always wonder about what's perceivably wrong with the HD sim...the prng...extra randomness....over-complexity....all of those...some of those...none of those...etc. Its really just a trust issue, and I'm not saying that WIS would purposely do something wrong with the sim or target certain people and screw them, that doesn't happen...it just doesn't seem to work properly all the time (i.e. the 50-9 second half, tied at halftime). I understand how randomness works and is supposed to work, and I know that NO game runs without randomness or an RNG of some sort.

The basis of my entire argument more or less is that I can't/don't trust WIS and that their game(s) work correctly all the time, given my past experiences with games/admins and responses. If I'm an ******* because of it, fine, I'm sorry, but when something presumably goes wrong, I will always err towards my anti-WIS stance and wonder what the hell's going on with the randomness/engine, and that's my biggest flaw in a nutshell. I don't and probably will never give WIS the benefit of the doubt, especially when the nonsense continues on the site...i.e. predicting another Cleveland-Portland final...but I guess God bless you guys for playing and accepting the game largely as is. I can never prove my side of the argument, its just all speculation on my part, but that's the reasoning. Some of the hows and whys of this game are a bit difficult to figure out because the game is overly/unnecessarily complex.

I'd just be rambling if I went on, so we'll leave it at that. Hopefully you all understand my stance and my reason(s) for it.
4/19/2010 3:14 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By schroedess26 on 4/19/2010
Well I must say that I think the randomness is fine its how the engine relates the random number to action that is not the best. I agree, though this is kind of the chicken and the egg argument. Things like the slow-down where you see games 8-2 in the first half or games where a team is running -5 so the other teams takes 50 3pt shots. These are the things that will hopefully be sorted out with the new engine. zhawks said that beta went terrible, so we'll see. Like I've said before, I've seen seble ruin game (the NBA sim) thus I'm not optimistic at all.

Also, it is irrelevant to argue about the randomness of this sim as its time has come up. The new engine is in "open-beta" testing. The new engine is using an in-house RNG instead of a 3rd party RNG. I just think that the game takes somethings and makes them to "extreme". That's probably what happens. If you don't know exactly what the problem is though, I think its fair to wonder about any and all facets of the engine.


One last thing Colonels you are wrong in the fact that the engine doesn't go into coast mode for your team. If you have it so when your winning your back-up players play more that is like coasting
4/19/2010 3:16 PM
Ya I didn't keep up with the beta as much as I should. I set my team and kinda let it coast.
4/19/2010 3:35 PM
does colon-els19 have to take over every thread?
4/19/2010 3:43 PM
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4/19/2010 4:05 PM
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4/19/2010 4:06 PM
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4/19/2010 4:08 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By a_in_the_b on 4/19/2010
So you think its fine for you to be reflexively - regardless of the facts - anti WIS< but if anyone dares defend a result they are an 'apologist' and there is something wrong. I don't think its fine for me to be anti-WIS, but that's just kind of happened over the last 6-7 years because of multiple bouts of nonsense...thus I tend to see the negative where a lot of others try to see the positive. If you never say/think anything is wrong with any of the supposedly bizarre results that are posted at different times in these threads, doesn't it paint you to be more pro-WIS than anything? Dalter still has yet to link me to a thread where he denounced a boxscore. Just because someone "explains" a result, doesn't mean that it automatically justifies what happened...that's what guys like you don't understand.

Perhaps you can get even a small glimmer of how much of a hypocrite that makes you? You're not even close to being as objective as you think...your anti-colonels feelings bleed through quite often as well. You are a WIS apologist...all I ever see you do is make excuses, here, NBA sim, everywhere.

4/19/2010 4:16 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By a_in_the_b on 4/19/2010
ANd COlonels, you have REPEATEDLY demonstrated that you DON'T understand probability atr all.
False, its YOU that have repeatedly demonstrated that you don't understand my argument and never did from the on set, atr all.
4/19/2010 4:17 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By a_in_the_b on 4/19/2010

Ok, Colonels. Sure. There is something magical about _exactly tied_ to _exactly 41_.

You are beyond ludicrous. . .


Again, what did I ask you to find, and what did you find? Answer...NOT THE SAME THING, and moreover, ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES. You're completely straw grabbing here, dalter told you that that example didn't apply.

Bottom line is, you didn't get what I asked for, but you're still trying to smooth it over because the point swing was close...you know what that is arss.....FAILURE...thanks for playing...you lose.
4/19/2010 4:19 PM
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4/19/2010 4:20 PM
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4/19/2010 4:22 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By a_in_the_b on 4/19/2010
When you make an argument that is flat out wrong? You presume this to be true, but you don't know it to be true, and on top of everything, you're the prototypical WIS apologist, so your word is gold and incredibly objective, right? Yes, it will be opposed. SOrry, just because you believe something wrong doesn't entitle you to have it not disputed. When have I ever said don't attack my argument? I will go toe to toe with anyone here at any time about anything. Again, people like you expect me to shut up just because I'm in the minority and you think I should, well you've met a different kind of monster. The tied at half time, 41 point victory is/was complete crap...if it wasn't, ATTEMPT to justify it for me.
4/19/2010 4:25 PM
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4/19/2010 4:29 PM
No, COlonels. You go toe to toe with BAD ARGUMENTS BASED ON BAD STATISTICS and an inadequate knowledge of how probability works. Perhaps when 99.5% of people you run into disagree with you consistently it should give you a clue as to where the problem lies.

4/19/2010 4:30 PM
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35 pt swing. Same teams Topic

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