I'm not desperate to learn the ratio.  I've said it is no big deal.  I'm trying to understand why it is a big deal to the others who have posted in this thread.

Knowing how SIMAI recruits gives you a huge advantage when targeting one of their recruits.  It is a formula in this case.  If it we were not privy to SIMAI's strategy you would see greatly different behavior.  There are always complaints about SIMAI recruiting being too weak -- telling everybody the way they do it makes it even weaker.

I think the number of battles (between humans) is more dependent on the number of humans than anything else.

Posted by _hannibal_ on 9/9/2010 3:55:00 PM (view original):
I'm not desperate to learn the ratio.  I've said it is no big deal.  I'm trying to understand why it is a big deal to the others who have posted in this thread.

Knowing how SIMAI recruits gives you a huge advantage when targeting one of their recruits.  It is a formula in this case.  If it we were not privy to SIMAI's strategy you would see greatly different behavior.  There are always complaints about SIMAI recruiting being too weak -- telling everybody the way they do it makes it even weaker.

I think the number of battles (between humans) is more dependent on the number of humans than anything else.

acn, billyg, myself and others have explained to you why we'd be against it and why it would be a bad idea.

Not sure why you're hung up on the Sim AI thing, but no, recruiting against them is not a formula. When you enter a battle against a sim team you literally have no idea how much it will cost you to sign the recruit.

Posted by bhansalid00 on 9/9/2010 1:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 9/9/2010 9:02:00 AM (view original):
Bottom line: I think we agree that HD could certainly benefit from more transparency in certain areas and reaching out more to new coaches to make sure they are comfortable and understand what's going on. We just happen to disagree on whether the HV/CV thing should be one of those transparent items.

I don't think it's the end of the world, but I think it would hurt a lot more than it would help.

Actually, I'm not sure I even agree with the initial part about more transparency in certain areas. I think HD has achieved the right amount of transparency already.

One of the assumptions I hear from people who say HD should be more transparent is that it'll even the playing field for newbies vs veterans, which is supposed to make newbies happier with the product. I don't agree with that. I think the really fun part for new guys is slowly learning the things that the vets already know. I didn't learn about dropdowns until about my 5th season, and I wasn't successful at a pulldown until quite a while after that (with some spectacular recruiting fails along the way). I wasn't bitter about that - in fact, I felt like I'd earned / accomplished something by paying attention to other coaches and trying different things on my own. If you're the type of player who's going to stick around long-term, chances are that kind of continuous learning and evolution appeals to you. The newbies who don't like it that way, or feel it's patently unfair that vets know "secrets" they don't, are probably not going to stick around anyway. And WIS shouldn't give away more transparency to appease the short-term folks at the expense of a richer gaming experience.

+1

Posted by girt25 on 9/9/2010 5:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by _hannibal_ on 9/9/2010 3:55:00 PM (view original):
I'm not desperate to learn the ratio.  I've said it is no big deal.  I'm trying to understand why it is a big deal to the others who have posted in this thread.

Knowing how SIMAI recruits gives you a huge advantage when targeting one of their recruits.  It is a formula in this case.  If it we were not privy to SIMAI's strategy you would see greatly different behavior.  There are always complaints about SIMAI recruiting being too weak -- telling everybody the way they do it makes it even weaker.

I think the number of battles (between humans) is more dependent on the number of humans than anything else.

acn, billyg, myself and others have explained to you why we'd be against it and why it would be a bad idea.

Not sure why you're hung up on the Sim AI thing, but no, recruiting against them is not a formula. When you enter a battle against a sim team you literally have no idea how much it will cost you to sign the recruit.

Well you haven't done a good job explaining it because I am not convinced.  The only take away I have really gotten is that you think it is a bad idea because it will make things more predictable, formulaic and reduce battles.  But you haven't explained why you think that will be the case.

Suppose everybody knows that the ratio is 5:2.  Can you supply a specific example where coach A decides not to battle coach B in this hypothetical world but coach A would battle coach B in the actual HD world where the ratio is unknown?

Again assume that everybody knows the ratio is 5:2.  My team is a D+ prestige battling for a recruit 10 miles away against a C- prestige team 150 miles from the recruit.  The other team has three openings; four recruits are considering this team and he is in battles for two of them (including the recruit in question).  My team has three openings as well.  How does the knowledge CV:HV impact this battle?

Again let's say the ratio is known and is 5:2.  I am targeting a recruit 250 miles away.  No other teams are targeting the same recruit.  How does the knowledge of the CV:HV ratio change this situation?

My mind is open if you care to take the time to convince me.  If you need to add any additional assumptions to the above feel free.  Clearly I am missing something that you all see as I am alone on an island with my opinion.  Perhaps when I see it I will be a better (fake) coach.

hannibal - comments inline

Well you haven't done a good job explaining it because I am not convinced.  The only take away I have really gotten is that you think it is a bad idea because it will make things more predictable, formulaic and reduce battles.  But you haven't explained why you think that will be the case. 
- i honestly cant believe its possible that you cant recognize why giving out a figure like this makes things more predictable and formulaic

Suppose everybody knows that the ratio is 5:2.  Can you supply a specific example where coach A decides not to battle coach B in this hypothetical world but coach A would battle coach B in the actual HD world where the ratio is unknown?
- sure. this is a ridiculous exercise though, clearly infinitely many such cases exist. anyway. say team A has 21k, say team B has 26k.. say team A is 10 miles away, to simplify, costs of 300/800 for hv/cv. team B is 210 miles away, to simplify, with costs of 400/1000 for hv/cv. both have identical B- prestiges.
in the world where ratio is known, at 2.5, A will do HV and B will do CV. the spending comes out to A is spending 750 per unit of cv credit and B is paying 1000. A can spend 28 campus visits of credit, B can spend 26. so, A knows he can win, and battles.
- in the real world, A thinks the ratio is 2:1. then, he can still do 28 campus visits of credit, but he thinks B is paying 800 per campus visit of credit, and can do 32.5 campus visits. so, A does not battle.
- there are an infinite number of similar examples.

Again assume that everybody knows the ratio is 5:2.  My team is a D+ prestige battling for a recruit 10 miles away against a C- prestige team 150 miles from the recruit.  The other team has three openings; four recruits are considering this team and he is in battles for two of them (including the recruit in question).  My team has three openings as well.  How does the knowledge CV:HV impact this battle?
- it effects the choice to use CV or HV which can determine the outcome. given the other information, its impossible to know who will win with or without the CV:HV ratio. but it still can effect who wins. with both guys being the same distance, this is the case where HV:CV ratio matters the least.

Again let's say the ratio is known and is 5:2.  I am targeting a recruit 250 miles away.  No other teams are targeting the same recruit.  How does the knowledge of the CV:HV ratio change this situation?
- you could be less ridiculous, you should give that a try. just because something doesn't effect every case, well, it doesn't mean a damn thing.

My mind is open if you care to take the time to convince me.  If you need to add any additional assumptions to the above feel free.  Clearly I am missing something that you all see as I am alone on an island with my opinion.  Perhaps when I see it I will be a better (fake) coach.
- i dont disagree with you as much as it seems, you are just being somewhat ridiculous and im not sure why. it comes down to an opinion whether this should be public info or not. you don't need to be convinced, all you should do is appreciate the other side of it. i am pretty sure girt and acn see your side of it and appreciate it, but they disagree.

Billy, I'm not trying to be ridiculous; I tried to include every case so that you (or whomever) would be able to pick one that makes the strongest argument.  I'm not expecting it to affect every situation.

Let me pick at your first example.  First, A does not know that the prestiges are identical.  Since one could be a high B- and the other a low B-, the prestige factor introduces at least a +-30% to the calculation.  Ignoring that for the moment, secondly, A does not know how much carry over money B has.  If B has $2000 more carry over than A in your scenario then B has the advantage.  Or if B spent $2000 less on FSS.  Finally, a very minor point, you have the example backwards, you were supposed to have more battles in the real HD world, not less.

Again let's say the ratio is known and is 5:2.  I am targeting a recruit 250 miles away.  No other teams are targeting the same recruit.  How does the knowledge of the CV:HV ratio change this situation?

Having a released, "actual" CV:HV ratio gives you a formula to spend your money the exact, correct, most efficient way possible. How this affects battles is debatable-- maybe you now have extra cash so go out and start a battle somewhere. Or maybe nobody messes with you because they've all figured out exactly what it costs to win the guy, and either can't or don't want to spend that much.

Seems to me the people that want to know the exact ratio just don't like doing leg work. It's not the end of the world if you actually have to figure things out on your own, to me that makes things more fun. If we should know the exact ratio of CV:HV then why shouldn't we know the exact advantage gained by each prestige level or have an exact formula so we know exactly where within a letter grade our prestige is. We should also know the exact edge close to home and far from home is while we're at it.

Well said kmason...part of the game is to figure these things out...why does everyone want the information spoon fed to them?

Just read the forums.  it basically is spoon fed.  unless one considers the possibility that ppl have come up w/ slightly different ratios b/c we're working under faulty assumptions.

Posted by sully712 on 9/10/2010 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Well said kmason...part of the game is to figure these things out...why does everyone want the information spoon fed to them?

Yes, part of the game is figuring things out, like what type of PF complements your stud C.  I am questioning what subset of things should be in the "figure it out" category versus the "part of the instructions" category.  After all, there are currently things in both categories, correct?  So where does the line get drawn?  What is the compelling reason that this specific piece of information (not all the other red herrings people keep bringing up, like prestige factor) should be kept secret?

Or you can just keep on shouting "SPOON FED" until I give up.  (BTW, there are plenty of things in the game that qualify as higher on the spoon fed - black box spectrum than revealing the CV:HV ratio:  fatigue-based substitutions, halftime adjustments, exact knowledge of player ratings, exact knowledge of player injuries, unchanging SIM AI game plans, etc.)

Obviously, no one is getting through to you.  You seem to have your opinion and that is it.  Why give out the HV:CV ratio?  There are some knowns in recruiting, prestige, distance, $ per scholarship.  There are unknowns CV:HV ratio, exact prestige and value of prestige diference, exact money per team.  The more unknowns you take out, the less difficult/interesting it becomes.  Why take more variables out of play?  If everyone knew the ratio (no one knows; most have a good guess) then the outcome of the battles would be even more predictable as everyone woul know exactly what everyone else is doing.  It would lead to less battles, in my opinion and that is why I think it is a bad idea.

Posted by _hannibal_ on 9/10/2010 1:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sully712 on 9/10/2010 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Well said kmason...part of the game is to figure these things out...why does everyone want the information spoon fed to them?

Yes, part of the game is figuring things out, like what type of PF complements your stud C.  I am questioning what subset of things should be in the "figure it out" category versus the "part of the instructions" category.  After all, there are currently things in both categories, correct?  So where does the line get drawn?  What is the compelling reason that this specific piece of information (not all the other red herrings people keep bringing up, like prestige factor) should be kept secret?

Or you can just keep on shouting "SPOON FED" until I give up.  (BTW, there are plenty of things in the game that qualify as higher on the spoon fed - black box spectrum than revealing the CV:HV ratio:  fatigue-based substitutions, halftime adjustments, exact knowledge of player ratings, exact knowledge of player injuries, unchanging SIM AI game plans, etc.)

But what is the compelling reason to reveal this specific piece of information?  Unless I've missed it, you haven't come up with any specific reason that CS should change their stance and reveal the exact ratio.

In your first post, you say you just want to know what popular opinion is.  Popular opinion seems to be overwhelmingly in the camp that the ratio is generally known, but the exact figure shouldn't be revealed, but you keep pounding away that popular opinion is wrong.

Hannibal name 1 thing that is based on a formula that we know the exact formula to in this game? Every formula is kept secret and it's our job to do our best to figure it out to give ourselves an edge it's part of the strategy of the game. Them giving out the formulas is the equivalent to a great chili chef giving out his recipe.

Inline quoting to reply to multiple users.

> If everyone knew the ratio (no one knows; most have a good guess) then the outcome of the battles would be even more predictable as everyone woul know exactly what everyone else is doing.  It would lead to less battles, in my opinion and that is why I think it is a bad idea.

I don't see how it leads to less battles.  I asked for specific examples to help me see this.  BillyG tried to put together a scenario, but the uncertainty of the prestige factor submarines it in my opinion.

> But what is the compelling reason to reveal this specific piece of information?  Unless I've missed it, you haven't come up with any specific reason that CS should change their stance and reveal the exact ratio.

You haven't missed it, I don't claim to have done so.  I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm trying to understand the opposite viewpoint.

> Hannibal name 1 thing that is based on a formula that we know the exact formula to in this game?

Recruiting money per scholarship, per postseason game, recruiting costs for various distances, costs per recruits for FSS, RPI.  There are probably more.