How to attack a good FCP? Topic

tianyi7886
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When I run fcp, I love it when I see teams go slowdown vs me. Simply means the chance of my players fouling out is much lower. Have had numerous games in which my starting 1-3 survived the game with 4 fouls against a slowdown; if the game was uptempo and generated another 10-15 combined possessions, at least one of those guys would have fouled out and probably cost me the game. 
10/11/2011 4:01 PM
apollo7
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IMHO, betting on the other teams guys fouling out as your main strategy is too much of a roll of the dice.   If you run a FCP you're "probably" going to have a ath/spd advantage on your opponent, on average.  Given such, going uptempo it is more likely that my guys will foul out before your's do.  I guess each matchup has to looked at on it's own.  I know what works for me...I think...lol.

Your not trying to spread misinformation are you?  (wink, wink)

10/11/2011 4:13 PM
tianyi7886
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Posted by apollo7 on 10/11/2011 4:13:00 PM (view original):

IMHO, betting on the other teams guys fouling out as your main strategy is too much of a roll of the dice.   If you run a FCP you're "probably" going to have a ath/spd advantage on your opponent, on average.  Given such, going uptempo it is more likely that my guys will foul out before your's do.  I guess each matchup has to looked at on it's own.  I know what works for me...I think...lol.

Your not trying to spread misinformation are you?  (wink, wink)

I still don't understand why teams that run m2m/zone always play at an ath/spd disadvantage against the press. If you are 10 points behind in ath/spd, you will lose against any opposing scheme.

Betting on the other team fouling out is a pretty sound strategy; I pretty much build all my teams on this concept. Against a fcp, having your opponents starters foul out is simply easier than m2m or zone. Go with your most athletic and fastest player, or a big with very high lp and great ath, set him to -2, 30-35 distro, and your opponents starters will foul out. 
10/11/2011 4:17 PM
apollo7
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More than one way to skin a cat.  My St. Edwards's team went to the final four with average to poor team ath/spd.   This is the same team that in a different thread you told me sucked and I needed to recruit better for spd/ath.  Your first statement is an empiracle statement submitted as an absolute.

I'm sure that is a good strategy.  I prefer to play to my strengths and make other teams adjust to me, rather than change everything I'm doing and hope the other team fouls out some guys (usually in the last 2 minutes of the game as well...having little impact).

You have a philosophy that works for you and I'm sure is very valid.  I'm just saying that there might be better or equally good, and possibly more reliable and predictable strategies.

10/11/2011 4:26 PM
apollo7
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That being said, your record speaks for itself, so I will bow down to your experience and results.
10/11/2011 4:31 PM
apollo7
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Let's just say this.  IF you don't have a spd/atl advantage against a FCP opponent, then slow it down.  If you are equal or better at spd/ath, speed it up....  agreed?
10/11/2011 4:32 PM
tianyi7886
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Posted by apollo7 on 10/11/2011 4:26:00 PM (view original):

More than one way to skin a cat.  My St. Edwards's team went to the final four with average to poor team ath/spd.   This is the same team that in a different thread you told me sucked and I needed to recruit better for spd/ath.  Your first statement is an empiracle statement submitted as an absolute.

I'm sure that is a good strategy.  I prefer to play to my strengths and make other teams adjust to me, rather than change everything I'm doing and hope the other team fouls out some guys (usually in the last 2 minutes of the game as well...having little impact).

You have a philosophy that works for you and I'm sure is very valid.  I'm just saying that there might be better or equally good, and possibly more reliable and predictable strategies.

Ath/spd being extremely important is shared by alot of good coaches in this game. There's a reason for almost every NC team in every world to be near the top in ath/spd; I have yet to see a NC team with mediocre ath/spd winning it all. 

You did in fact go to the Final 4 this season with very low ath/spd, but this looks like a statistical anomaly and I bet that you won't go past the Sweet 16 next season if your team ath+spd is sub 100. 

10/11/2011 4:36 PM
tianyi7886
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Posted by apollo7 on 10/11/2011 4:32:00 PM (view original):
Let's just say this.  IF you don't have a spd/atl advantage against a FCP opponent, then slow it down.  If you are equal or better at spd/ath, speed it up....  agreed?
I don't agree with this. If your opponent is running short with 10 players or have team stamina sub 76 (assuming the 5 starters aren't sporting 88+) you should run uptempo to fatigue them out. 
10/11/2011 4:38 PM
apollo7
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A statistical anomoly!!!  How dare you!!!!
10/11/2011 4:39 PM
tianyi7886
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Posted by apollo7 on 10/11/2011 4:39:00 PM (view original):
A statistical anomoly!!!  How dare you!!!!
Actually, looking more closely at your schedule, you also got a very good draw up until the Elite 8. The first 3 teams you faced were weak D2 teams and probably won't go over .500 in tough D3 conf in Tark, like ODAC or other full D3 conf like Upstate in Wooden or Capital in Naismith. 

Again, I stick by my statement. If your team ath+spd < 100, you will not make it past the Sweet 16 next season, and I have a feeling the team will get knocked out in the round of 32. Guess we will just see how your team performs next year. 
10/11/2011 4:44 PM
apollo7
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Long suffering St. Ed's goes to the tourney for the first time in school history, is the cinderella story of the dance, and makes it to the final four, and the experts write it off as a "stastical anomoly"!!!   St. Ed fans are burning tianyi effagies in the streets!!!
10/11/2011 4:46 PM
apollo7
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I won't take that bet since I'm graduating everyone this year.....

And, yes, I know you are probably right.  When you start with C- prestige you have to take what you can get, and that isn't high ath/spd guys.  Now that I'm B+ I will be focusing more on that.
10/11/2011 4:48 PM
apollo7
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I guess the point I'm was trying to make, is that yes, you are correct that high spd/ath is the most important thing.  However, from high on your throne you may not remember what its like to take over a dog program, and have to find ways to fight and claw your way to a better prestige.   You have to find other ways of being successful and I was pointing out one way.  Maybe not a stratagey to win a NC, but it is a strategy to compete with the big boys while building your program.

10/11/2011 4:51 PM
tianyi7886
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Posted by apollo7 on 10/11/2011 4:51:00 PM (view original):

I guess the point I'm was trying to make, is that yes, you are correct that high spd/ath is the most important thing.  However, from high on your throne you may not remember what its like to take over a dog program, and have to find ways to fight and claw your way to a better prestige.   You have to find other ways of being successful and I was pointing out one way.  Maybe not a stratagey to win a NC, but it is a strategy to compete with the big boys while building your program.

I'm rebuilding Menlo in Naismith right now from C- prestige. The only thing I focused on in recruiting was ath/spd/def/stamina.
10/11/2011 5:01 PM
dahsdebater
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Posted by apollo7 on 10/11/2011 3:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 10/11/2011 2:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by apollo7 on 10/11/2011 1:00:00 PM (view original):
As a team, we shot .516 from the field during the season.  When running uptempo against FCP my average fell to the basement.  Maybe there is something else going on here.  Here are my other losses against the other FCP team in my conference:

uptempo:  http://whatif.cincinatti.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=7442139
uptempo:  http://whatif.cincinatti.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=7452305
slowdown:  http://whatif.cincinatti.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=7466241

The slowdown was still a loss but my FG% went pretty much back to normal.
That's a .05 jump in field goal percentage.  That's like 2 shots.  If you're trying to read engine performance out of 2 shots in 1 game you're going to find evidence for all kinds of things that don't actually exist.
Its ALL ABOUT those 2 to 3 made shots per game.  At the highest level of competition, most games will come down to a 4 to 6 point swing before end of game fouling.

That being said, my (albiet small sample size) experience from last season is as follows:

vs. Drury - uptempo - shot .500
vs. Drury - uptempo - shot .436
vs. Drury - slowdown - shot .556

vs. St. Mary's - uptempo - shot .458
vs. St. Mary's - uptempo - shot ..452
vs. St. Mary's - slowdown - shot .509

I coached high school ball for 20 years.  This is only common sense.  Against someone trying to press you non stop, you slow it down to keep your best players on the court, and work for a good shot.  Unless you are fastbreak team built around running, trying to uptempo them and beat them by getting their players tired is a losing proposition, since their team will specifically be built around stamina (if they are good).  Going uptempo you are playing into their hands. I had to learn that the hard way.

However, just my humble opinion.  Take or leave it I don't care.
I think right here you are once again reading WAY too much of real life into this game.  I'm not arguing that in real life it makes sense to run uptempo against pressing teams.  In real life stars can easily average 35+ minutes, whereas the only players that typically see that kind of time in this game have absentee coaches and are operating on an outdated depth chart.  Fatigue is very different in this game than in real life, which means the strategy has to change somewhat.  And because of how fatigue works in this game, going uptempo against the press is a very good strategy on a fairly regular basis.  The inability to tell players who are accumulating fouls  quickly not to become involved in trapping in an aggressive pressing defense also plays into the hands of a fast-paced attack strategy in the game.
10/11/2011 7:10 PM
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