Well now I just feel more conflicted than before... I guess a healthy mix of both is desirable which is what I can take away from this thread but I guess its just a question of why you say not to devalue speed when recruiting girt? Everyone else has their reasons for championing ATH and I guess I can see their logic at the same time I think the real confusion here for everyone is what exactly does the SP category entail. Before starting this thread I was under the impression that speed was a combination of top end speed as well as quickness and ATH was a combination of strength, leaping ability, and jumping quickness. If speed includes quickness then certainly no one can discount the importance of speed in guards as opposed to ATH. If quickness is included in ATH then the majority of the people in this thread would be correct in choosing ATH over SP. 

Quickness was said to be part of athleticism in a developer chat a few years back. This was before seble came along and before recent changes in the game. I don't believe the changes have changed anything however.

Posted by rednation58 on 9/28/2011 6:29:00 AM (view original):
Well now I just feel more conflicted than before... I guess a healthy mix of both is desirable which is what I can take away from this thread but I guess its just a question of why you say not to devalue speed when recruiting girt? Everyone else has their reasons for championing ATH and I guess I can see their logic at the same time I think the real confusion here for everyone is what exactly does the SP category entail. Before starting this thread I was under the impression that speed was a combination of top end speed as well as quickness and ATH was a combination of strength, leaping ability, and jumping quickness. If speed includes quickness then certainly no one can discount the importance of speed in guards as opposed to ATH. If quickness is included in ATH then the majority of the people in this thread would be correct in choosing ATH over SP. 

Again, you are really over thinking this. Spd, Ath, BH, Def, etc. are all parts of an equation to determine offensive and defensive efficiency. I don't get why you keep wanting to break it down into components and to explain what each one means in term of real basketball. That's not how it works here; the sim engine only sees 1s and 0s. 

if they changed the labels on these skills to

banana, orange, apple, pear and apricot

and then said that banana and orange were very important for guards, while apple and pear are somewhat important -  would it change the game - other than making it less amusing?

Posted by fd343ny on 9/28/2011 9:19:00 AM (view original):
if they changed the labels on these skills to

banana, orange, apple, pear and apricot

and then said that banana and orange were very important for guards, while apple and pear are somewhat important -  would it change the game - other than making it less amusing?

au contraire mon frere - I contend the game would be much more amusing if we were debating our players' bananas...

Posted by tianyi7886 on 9/28/2011 9:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by rednation58 on 9/28/2011 6:29:00 AM (view original):
Well now I just feel more conflicted than before... I guess a healthy mix of both is desirable which is what I can take away from this thread but I guess its just a question of why you say not to devalue speed when recruiting girt? Everyone else has their reasons for championing ATH and I guess I can see their logic at the same time I think the real confusion here for everyone is what exactly does the SP category entail. Before starting this thread I was under the impression that speed was a combination of top end speed as well as quickness and ATH was a combination of strength, leaping ability, and jumping quickness. If speed includes quickness then certainly no one can discount the importance of speed in guards as opposed to ATH. If quickness is included in ATH then the majority of the people in this thread would be correct in choosing ATH over SP. 

Again, you are really over thinking this. Spd, Ath, BH, Def, etc. are all parts of an equation to determine offensive and defensive efficiency. I don't get why you keep wanting to break it down into components and to explain what each one means in term of real basketball. That's not how it works here; the sim engine only sees 1s and 0s. 

This.

Rednation...in the end it doesn't matter what each different categories components are.  It matters which categories to each position.  I think you should stop being in search of breaking down the categories and more worried about which combinations of the categories work best with the different offense and defenses.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 9/28/2011 9:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by rednation58 on 9/28/2011 6:29:00 AM (view original):
Well now I just feel more conflicted than before... I guess a healthy mix of both is desirable which is what I can take away from this thread but I guess its just a question of why you say not to devalue speed when recruiting girt? Everyone else has their reasons for championing ATH and I guess I can see their logic at the same time I think the real confusion here for everyone is what exactly does the SP category entail. Before starting this thread I was under the impression that speed was a combination of top end speed as well as quickness and ATH was a combination of strength, leaping ability, and jumping quickness. If speed includes quickness then certainly no one can discount the importance of speed in guards as opposed to ATH. If quickness is included in ATH then the majority of the people in this thread would be correct in choosing ATH over SP. 

Again, you are really over thinking this. Spd, Ath, BH, Def, etc. are all parts of an equation to determine offensive and defensive efficiency. I don't get why you keep wanting to break it down into components and to explain what each one means in term of real basketball. That's not how it works here; the sim engine only sees 1s and 0s. 

That's exactly right.

I was always told to get the best player, so as far as what categories are better for what schemes I'm not too concerned with that at this point. I care about it but I'm not there yet. 

 I mean come on fellas we all pay good money to play this game. You can't tell me you don't want to know what you're paying for. If apple did this and bananas did that, I would want to know... i don't care what the label may be but in the end it is a basketball similuation engine... not a fruit salad.

I keep breaking down components because I want to win tianyi just like I'm sure we all want to win. If seble came on here and broke down categories I'm sure everyone would be all ears. The plain and simple fact here is that some categories do carry other "secret" attributes and we could debate all day about what they are or get some concrete resolution to this.... and yes I do want to know what they are... I would think we all would otherwise what's the purpose of playing the game... I could play the lottery and feel like I was spending my money on something with more satisfaction because at least I know what my odds are.

I also get the sim engine only sees figures. But in the end, some of these figures are more important than others... Example... who recruits for high durability here??? Who has had a player injured with low durability? and if so how often has it happened? High or low durability I have never had an injured player so to me durability is an empty stat. I'm sure everyone would agree depending on your scheme Stamina is crucial because it can directly affect your players ability in the game so you recruit for stamina but stamina is stamina period. When I read the FAQ it says rebounding means nothing if a player doesnt have the ATH to RB... a high RB stat just means the player has a great "desire" to rebound... what does that really mean?

My point is basketball is an athletic game so the figures for ATH may be more valuable. Basketball is also a game of speed so speed may be just as important... but when you start adding secret stats to these categories you tip the balance of importance to one or the other.

Where are you getting that some categories carry "secret" attributes?

65 Athleticism carries a specific modifier in the equation (maybe .65, 65, 6.5 or 3.25, etc.) and this modifier is used in conjunction with the other ratings to generate an offense/defense efficiency number. 65 athleticism doesn't mean its 25 strength, 15 lateral movement, 25 vertical leap. If that's what it meant, the game developers might as well just take out Ath as a category and throw in Strength, Lateral, Vertical, as individual components. 

As for which categories are most important, I think the consensus is clear. Ath and Spd are both important, and an edge in Ath can counter a deficiency in speed and vice versa. 

You are trying to think of this in basketball terms with logic such as "if this guy can do a cone drill in 4.2 seconds while the guy guarding him runs it in 8.2, then there's no way for the defender to win this battle, even if the defender is much stronger." This might be true in real life basketball but is not how this game works. 

I read a post from sable saying that strength is included in ATH. I will search for the post so I can show you.

Posted by rednation58 on 9/28/2011 11:11:00 AM (view original):
I read a post from sable saying that strength is included in ATH. I will search for the post so I can show you.

He's simply saying it to add realism to the game. It doesn't mean there are sub components to each category. 

As you said, this is a basketball simulation game, so he has to explain things in terms of basketball to make basketball fans want to play this. You are reading too much into things. 

rednation, let me try to put this a different way. if you knew exactly what non-numeric "qualities" were included in ATH or SPD... what difference would it make in your recruiting? Would you recruit extra-hard for ATH because it includes strength? No - because its quantitative impact on your performance is already captured in the numbers.

So, for example, let's say that you feel the best formula for offensive success for a point guard is something like (2 * ATH) + (3 * SPD) + 2 * (PER + BH + PAS). Others may feel differently - maybe value BH and PAS more, or ATH less, or whatever. The point is, once you have your formula, it's no longer helpful for you to try to assign RL basketball terms, like explosiveness or strength or leaping ability, to a defined rating like ATH. In fact, it's detrimental to your success, because you'll be looking for extra clues - or what you called "secret attributes" - where they simply don't exist.

I understand you want this game to be as realistic as possible. But you have to simply trust that the developers have already baked that complexity into their weightings for each rating, and move on.     

It's not so much about me wanting the game to be realistic as it is about me wanting to know which figures carry more weight. I want to know what's better for a guard to have ATH or SP not so much how "real" it will be in a game time situation. Just as you have (3*SPD) in your example that would mean speed is more important right? Maybe the developers used the 3 to account for more attributes associated with SP thus making it a dominant stat. As far as your figures show speed has more impact than any other stat in your ex. Whether it's right or wrong, that's what I'd like to know... that's what I'm searching for... not some type of realism in a simulation. What's the correct formula since everything should remain constant for every coach in this engine.

if I'm running the flex and I need outside shooting for my scheme to work I'm going to recruit outside shooting... at the same time I know numerically I have to have good BH and SP and IQ for my player to be a great shooter so even more stats come into play when considering recruiting for my scheme. When I mention strength being associated with ATH it's more of a "should I recruit an ATH player vs. a speed player... more so than me visualizing my player in a game ...strong arming his matchup because he has 90 ATH. I want the numbers to work for me. In your phrase you use this "secret" 2 or 3 as a multiplier. In my head that multiplier represents some strength... as to what it is we can put a label on it and call it strength or quickness or whatever... it's something outside the realm of the stats but makes the stat more dominant.

I read an 07 thread in the DEV chats that said LP didn't even matter for guards period... its an empty stat... it states LP only comes into play when the player is positioned at SF, PF or C. So if this thread is still accurate... I can recruit a guard with 0 LP and have nothing to worry about because he doesn't need it... This is all I'm asking because if this is true then some stats don't matter as much as others do position wise. And of the stats that do matter... there has to be a variance in importance.

No one knows which factor carries the most weight but the consensus is that ath and speed matters the most, and among these 2, no one knows. This is why people come on this board asking for advice about which player is better, who would you play, etc. and the opinions vary. There is no objective criteria to decide and weigh the different ratings. Personally, in my formula, I slightly weigh athleticism more than speed for all my players. 

LP matters for guards. The '07 dev chat is from 4 years ago and things have changed alot since then. 

I tend to prefer ATH over SPD but I think it's because tianyi told me too!