Posted by jcred5 on 1/15/2023 10:50:00 AM (view original):
It's been a while since I've don the ODL. I remember last time there were always a few guys that would go undrafted and people would later be surprised. The list of players I'm "bumping into" during my search to round out my bench is kind of ridiculous. I was feeling this a bit during the draft, that pick position and prior ADP didn't seem to matter much as the draft went on. Has ODL turned into a test more of roster building/trade offs than draft quality? Obviously there's a few guys at the top of high value, after that I was more worried I would screw up my team with a high cost pick rather than improve it. There's just so many guys.

Maybe a bit of an over reaction - curious what the ODL vets think.

Starting around midway through the third, there is very little difference in quality between the undrafted guys and the drafted.

Posted by benhoidal on 1/15/2023 11:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Midge on 1/14/2023 4:58:00 PM (view original):
raggedclaws is supposed to write them.

If raggedclaws is unable to write them, I can try to out something together. No guarantees though. I’m pretty busy this time of year.

I'm happy to take a crack at evals, though the Zoom sounds fun as well. I'm getting back from holiday this evening and my first WIS priorities are division draft and getting my team in, but I should be able to do evals by Wednesday evening, which will likely still be before first games.

Posted by Midge on 1/14/2023 6:27:00 PM (view original):
Is it difficult to hold a pen with ragged claws?

Yes, but it's offset by the availability of squid ink

Posted by benhoidal on 1/15/2023 9:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by benhoidal on 1/15/2023 11:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Midge on 1/14/2023 4:58:00 PM (view original):
raggedclaws is supposed to write them.

If raggedclaws is unable to write them, I can try to out something together. No guarantees though. I’m pretty busy this time of year.

If people are interested, I can host a live Zoom Q&A like thing sometime next weekend. I don't have time to write out evals for each team unless I were to really half-*** it and that's not my style. Plus I've done enough evals that I don't think I'd have enough new content to add.

We can call it "Ask the Devil." Doesn't have to be ODL specific.

If there's enough interest, I'll carve out some time.

I'll do it depending on day/time. Later the better usually.

Some evals from the champ and a q/a from Ben would be great.

I’m holding out for evals from raggedclaws, The Sim Devil Show, and an apologetic site mail from everyone who defeats my team.

This might be my worst ODL team ever.

I don't know whether I hate my team or I think they could be sneaky. I'm leaning toward hate. I feel like the picks of Bill Russell and Steve Nash were the undoing of what could have been a reasonable start.

benhoidal - LeBron, Kevin McHale, Bobby Portis, JaVale McGee, Nic Batum, George Hill, Marvin Williams

What a place to start. Not much to say about LeBron; McHale is an interesting but strong pairing and it’s nice that you were able to afford his best season. Thought you might put him at SF, but it seems as though he’ll mostly play the 4/5 and that contributes to your pretty meh rebounding numbers. Can’t argue with the overall game though – apart from rebounding and midrange he doesn’t hurt anywhere and sets the tone with his high EFG, turnover averse game while bringing the D and not too many fouls.

There’s a lot to like about LeBron, Hill, McHale, and McGee as scorers (no I’m not going to discuss Jeremy Pargo here), the EFG is sterling, it’s a nice SF lineup with Portis and Marvin, I like Batum as the off-guard a lot especially at his price, and Battier fills that role as well. Nothing to complain about with Dirk. You’ve hit a nice balance of 3s and paint. Portis and McGee aren’t typical 3rd and 4th picks, but this wasn’t a typical draft.

I guess I just worry a bit that you’ll win the turnover game but lose on the boards, and your low passing will drag the shooting. But then I keep looking and your FT% is really nice and the TOs are so low and there’s defense everywhere and I know you pretty much never go for assists here. A tightened playoff rotation could be a real force to be dealt with. I’m not going to make predictions for each roster but this is clearly a finals contender, just one with a hole at rebounds that concerns me a tad.


ncih - Steph, Draymond, Bob McAdoo, Miles Bridges, Caldwell Jones, Mark Eaton, Art Williams

No objection to Steph here. This team is going to do a lot. It’s going to accumulate assists and rebounds, pick up a decent amount of steals and blocks, hit a good number of 3s. It’s also going to turn the ball over a ton, foul in bunches, and give up chunk of points with decent but not great defense.

I wish I knew what Caldwell Jones was doing here; there are plenty of low usage guys who will get you as many or more boards while not turning it over 3 times a game, while being a threat to foul out each night. Yes, he is cheap and OK on defense but he’s such a negative to be taking at all, let alone in the fifth. I don’t have the same issues with Miles Bridges but I’m not sure the market values him as highly as you do; he’s kind of expensive for what he brings, especially on a squad like yours which is cutting corners elsewhere, and you’ve offset the benefits of his clean game by following him up with Caldwell and co.

There’s not much to say about Eaton and Art, like Caldwell they bring decent defense as well as rebounds and assists, respectively – but there’s a reason they’re dirt cheap and that’s their exorbitant fouls and turnovers. If you spend a bit less on your first four picks, and less on guys such as Al J who will barely be able to get on the floor in non-garbage time, you’ll be able to upgrade your support players to non-eye-bleach numbers of towels.

I don’t love Draymond in the second but the core 4 of Steph, Draymond, McAdoo, and Miles do have strengths. There will be some games where this team limits the fouls and turnovers and probably looks pretty good. But you’re also going to get outshot by 7 or 8 more often than is sustainable.


jackedjamie - Giannis, Jonas Valanciunas, Haliburton, Joakim Noah, Faried, Marquese Chriss, Rodrigue Beaubois

I can understand the appeal of Valanciunas, even though I don’t think he’s a guy I’ve gone for often. Pairs well with Giannis and Noah, who cover his defensive deficiencies, and he’s cleaner than both. It’s all a bit expensive though.

Fortunately Haliburton is not, and you seem to have balanced your budget very cleanly. I really like the composition of this roster.

Good shooters (though maybe not from the line), strong rebounding, high assists with turnovers that are slightly high as well but not atrocious. Intimidating defense, JV and Faried excepted but accounted for. The team will foul a lot and you’re maybe a little light on 3s, but I expect this to be a very tough squad that will take you to a nice bounceback season, and am glad to have avoided it.


jethroeg - Anthony Davis, Penny, Klay, Robert Parish, Gus Johnson, Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Huerter

It was all going pretty well until Gus Johnson. Sure it’s a bit high for AD of course but I don’t totally hate it. I didn’t even know what a Gus Johnson was though, I had to look that up. Did you know that if you google Gus Johnson you have to go down two pages to even get to this guy? I started believing that the announcer had a secret career and had just aged really well. Jethroeg, are you Gus Johnson?

I guess I just don’t get it. He’s cheap but not dirt cheap, both shoots badly and fairly often, and is a big fouler, which seems like an issue with how many minutes he plays. I do recognize his decently good boards and low turnovers, and 70 defense.

I think Penny is a perfectly respectable pick in general as long as you can make the money work, but I’m not sure the numbers add up here. Light on the boards, poor A/T ratio, tons of fouls. Decent defense but there’s a big drop off when AD isn’t out there. Really only 4 good shooters on the team. Terrible Klay season to use. Just seems like you got overextended on $$$. You have way more shots than you need, would be a good area to cut down on in the future, I’d say Rasheed was a mistake.


dakjd901 - Wilt, Bam Adebayo, TJ McConnell, Gerald Wallace, Andre Kirilenko, Marcus Smart, Kermit Washington

Can’t argue with getting Wilt here, and you ended up with the right Wilt and Bam. The defense is studly. Massive passing numbers, but pretty bad towels, really bad FT shooting. TJ, Gerald Wallace, AK, and Smart all have their uses, but have too much in common; even a cheap someone like JR Smith or George Hill would have done wonders for this team.

Because the elephant in the room here is not nearly enough FGAs, and also not enough 3s. I know you said you struggled with budget, seemed like you locked yourself into a certain type of roster with your drafting. You were clearly forced into a far inferior Wallace season to save money.

You’re going to grab a lot of rebounds, get a lot of stops, and the EFG isn’t terrible, but with the low usage and high towels I feel like you’re going to struggle in the possession game and in the fourth quarter especially, it will be interesting to see how those play out.


berkelon - Nikola Jokic, Marcus Camby, Zach LaVine, Gary Payton, Serge Ibaka, Mitchell Robinson, Cameron Payne

Following Jokic with Camby is perfect, it’s one of the few contexts in which I’d take him in the second. You’re covering LaVine’s and Jokic’s defensive deficiencies quite well, and I think you filled out you bench very intelligently as well, plugging holes at defense and 3pm.

LaVine, hoo boy playing WIS convinced me to take him in my IRL fantasy league and that’s been a bust, but he does everything you want in the ODL within his role. I wasn’t a fan of GP at first glance but he really does fit like a glove, fairly impressed with how you made all the money work. Especially given that you’ve been able to fit Mitchell and Serge in. I guess that’s the Camby advantage.

You are going to foul like crazy, and it doesn’t appear you’ll get to the line much yourself. Still, I’m not thrilled about having you in my division. Harden might like it, at least. Wouldn't be shocked in the least to see you make the playoffs.


reeldeal01 - Dwight Howard, Jrue Holiday, Chris Boucher, Jarred Vanderbilt, Joe Ingles, Clyde Drexler, Lonzo Ball

This is potentially a very scary team. It seems like the turnovers might come out a bit high depending on how you finish the roster, but there’s a strong backbone of efficiency, defense, and rebounding, with a lot of guys who are plus rebounders for their position.

Curious how you fill out the rest of the frontcourt though, as there’s not so much inside scoring yet and the rebounding picture is still incomplete. But maybe you have enough $$$ left to plug the holes adequately, and if you do, this team is going to be really tough.

Last note, I think I've soured on Vanderbilt a bit. He plays so few minutes, the rebounding at 2 is nice to have but really what else does he do other than grab those couple of rebounds? Hardly shoots, doesn't pass for the position, high TOs, replacement level defense, can't space the floor or hit his free throws, and fouls like a fiend. There's some value that he brings, I'm just not convinced it's fourth round value.


PirateSteve - Chris Paul, Paul George, Nikola Vucevic, Robert Williams, Danny Green, Buck Williams, Gary Payton II

A well constructed team, the backcourt makes a lot of sense, the frontcourt is full of good players, and there are some nice bench pieces.

Not really my favorite Buck Williams season, and there aren’t many times I’d use one. Doesn’t shoot enough to take advantage of the EFG, and the fouls and poor passing really hurt. Not all that cheap. On the positive side, it can be tough to fit in low shooting guys like Timelord and GP II next to another low usage guy like Buck, but you seem to have made the minutes and shots work.

The squad may lean a bit 3 heavy – not sure that you needed Danny Green’s outside shooting – but the EFG is really nice, as are the rebounds. Seems like a playoff contender to me.

Yes I kinda formed my roster/picks to fit the team that i kinda started to create the first couple rounds. I got caught in that trap of might as well go all out for defense and then looked around and had no $$ left and had to compromise on the thing I drafted for. I hope I one day improve lol. I’m trying

Thanks for the eval. I try and see if I can build a team around a player that doesn't usually get drafted. Sometimes I can make it work, others I have to bail on it. This time I finally got a guy i've been thinking about for some time.. Eddie Jones!!

gerryred - Shaq, Andre Drummond, Jarrett Allen, Pascal Siakam, Derek Harper, Jose Calderon, Cheick Diallo

You sure did figure out that frontcourt early. Can’t really hate on any of the picks, and Siakam and his assists from the 3 (assuming he is playing the 3, which seems to be the case from your season selection) makes sense in that context. Like some of the community I am vaguely anti-Derek Harper but think he makes some sense where you took him and given the holes you had at the time.

It’s not exactly a shock that you ended up a bit low on 3PM given your top picks; other than that your peripherals mostly look good. Fouls are a bit high and defense is going to be middling – there’s the opportunity cost of plugging 3PM with Buddy Hield and Malik Beasley. Might have worked out better if you saved a bit of the money you’re spending on Diallo and upgraded one of those guys to a competent defender, or accepted a bit of a hit to EFG. But again I understand the need to plug in outside shooting given the early picks.

So I expect this team to be in a lot of high scoring games, but to also hold their own on the strength of excellent and plentiful shooting (maybe you can just decline free throws - check in with Ben Simmons about that) and a solid A/T ratio. Ben seems to think you won’t be a playoff team, but I imagine you’ll be in the playoff hunt most of the season. Bit of a tricky division though.


bfhendricks - Kevin Durant, Tyson Chandler, John Collins, Andrew Bogut, Mike Conley, Mark Price, Greg Monroe

The more I play this league, the more I like the idea of taking KD high. Tyson Chandler, John Collins, no complaints there. But Bogut may have been a mistake which sent this team a tiny bit off the rails.

Your roster doesn’t have enough FGAs, which is even worse because you have 200 or so minutes you could cut. That Bogut season is really expensive given that he’s likely to take 5-6 shots a game, turn it over 1.5 times in 22 minutes, and rack up 3 fouls while doing it. I don’t think it’s what you needed given that you had KD’s expensive season and Chandler’s low usage seasons to factor in already. I took Bogut last time I tried a Harden season and ended up regretting it, and I had more usage than you do.

I guess I don’t hate the idea of Mark Price on this team but I don’t love it after Conley, and I’m not sure you’ve chosen the right season; you’re paying a lot for that EFG, while he has other seasons with higher usage, nearly as good EFG, and better supporting stats, while sometimes being cheaper per min. You’re paying a lot for Monroe’s EFG too, you need shots, don’t be so picky! I ranked you pretty highly on my division draft but am worried the low shots will have you on the playoff periphery. Kind of high fouls, too.


riftonapple - Michael Jordan, Bill Walton, Montrezl Harrell, Artis Gilmore, Tobias Harris, Brent Barry, Mo Bamba

I like this team quite a lot. I’ve never run Walton, but he seems a worthy second rounder and doesn’t clash with MJ. The shots are good to have, though it seems that your main usage structure is Montrezl and Harris reprising my championship SF rotation and Harris backing up MJ. You’re pretty low on 3PM, though at least Barry and Harris bring up MJ’s percentages.

It’s good that you have a bit above average usage, as you'll have extra possessions with your strong rebounding. I like Mo Bamba in his role, same with Brent Barry. I think this is pretty good example of integrating Gilmore into a team late in the draft without dragging it down, though by the time you chop Gilmore down to the 83-84 season, well he’s just not that good anymore is he? The EFG is nice but he doesn’t excel. At least you had a lot of usage in place already.

I have some quibbles with the end of the roster construction. I can’t imagine paying that much for a 325 minute player in Bell, and you’re overpaying for Dennis Smith as well. I guess maybe you just ended up with a budget surplus, though it’s hard to square that with a non-optimal Harrell imo.

On a similar note, is 90-91 MJ really the preferred season? I don’t keep logs of others’ teams, but I seem to remember 89-90 may be the most common play, and that seems like it’s probably right to me, the only real cons being slightly higher TOs, and cost. Maybe Gilmore did drag this team down more than I thought.

I am an overall fan of this team despite those minor questions; didn’t quite have it in my top 5 but you’re going to be very tough in the division.


steelers821 - Kareem, Rudy Gobert, SGA, Thad Young, Kyle Anderson, LaMelo Ball, James Johnson

Starting with Kareem and Rudy was perfectly reasonable, I don’t feel like you snubbed anyone significant. SGA was a good pick, though continued your team on an expensive trend – looks like you had to cut a lot of budget with your last 5 guys to get above 19300.

The drafted team is very strong though. LaMelo is an outlier in the EFG department, but at least shoots FTs well. Personally, I’d be more willing to stomach his EFG if his towels weren’t so high; your whole team is kind of sloppy in that department.

Obviously, Kareem and Rudy are a strong defensive foundation, but your defense is middling from there and you may struggle against teams with more of a perimeter scoring punch. Rebounds, inside defense, and non-LaMelo EFG are the only plus plus categories. You had a strong showing last year but I ranked this squad around the middle of the pack.


chewy3344 - Karl Malone, Jason Kidd, Michael Porter, Otto Porter, Pau Gasol, Emeka Okafor, Chris Webber

This is my first real look at your team, since you weren’t in the division draft. At first glance I like all of these names but raised my eyebrows a bit at Webber – though I then realized you’re only using 7 of his minutes. He’s just a Mailman handcuff.

Your squad is light on the boards like many Mailman teams, though Kidd gives you assists while you keep overall TOs low. This team will probably be bottom 5 in turnovers, in the good sense.

Defense is pretty underwhelming, with only your first two picks really standing out in any positive way. Still, this team has a lot of positives overall. I think the soft rebounds and defense might keep you from finals contention but don’t see this sweet shooting team missing the playoffs.


Midge - David Robinson, KG, Richaun Holmes, Khris Middleton, Charlie Ward, Domantas Sabonis, Bogdan Bogdanovic

I ended up with David Robinson in my first ODL, and made a real mess of it. Then I soured on him for a while, and now I’ve come back around and like him with the asterisk that I can’t forget he’s only 4 usage points and that has to be accounted for. I think he’s good value here. I remember that I also paired Sabonis with Robinson and didn’t keep the TOs checked, but you have avoided that with clean play elsewhere, Ward excepted, and making some smart adds like Tyus Jones.

Usage, shooting, and threes look good. Rebounds are so-so, there are too many positions where this team rebounds below average. A/T is pretty solid, fouls are a bit high but I guess I’ve been seeing a lot of 1600ish fouls lately so carry on. Should be a positive on the free throw line.

Other than the rebounds and the high volume of good-not-great shooting, feels like this is a really complete roster. Your team last year was quite scary and I didn’t want any piece of this one either. I hope my positivity isn’t a disappointment; maybe if you ask ben nicely he’ll say something meaner about your team.


NotoriousJ - Clint Capela, Luka Doncic, Moses Malone, Andre Iguodala, De’Anthony Melton, Ginobili, Jae Crowder

I am definitely a member of the Clint Capela fan club. Taking him this high had me thinking… hm. Luka isn’t my favorite but is a logical pairing. I’m intrigued by the drafted players. I ranked your team better than anyone else in the draft, and after looking your roster over I still see some things I like, though there are issues present as well.

You have a lot of shots. This team didn’t need Mirotic; you’ve got 760 3PM without him. I know he’s not playing a lot of minutes but replace him with someone who’s a better rebounder, or finisher, or defender.

Rebounds are great, A/T is… OK. EFG is squarely in the 54-55 range other than Capela, and you’re squeezing him out a bit with all those shots. I was scared to look at your FT% at first but it’s respectable and I don’t have a problem with your defense either.

You know what, I’m still feeling like this is a solid team. I still don’t think Capela was great value but I like the overall build. Maybe you won’t make the playoffs but I definitely don’t see you as bottom 6.


Thomasmh1 - Hakeem, Kobe Bryant, Rajon Rondo, Scottie Pippen, Malcolm Brogdon, Shawn Kemp, Josh Giddey

OK here we are. There were questions about the money, questions about the build, enough so that you were the first pick on three draft ballots. So how does the finished product look?

Well, it’s a bit ugly. I’ll start with the positives. You will never hit the usage penalty. The defense is pretty good. You have plenty of rebounds, lots of steals and blocks.

But you have 700 more minutes than you need, and 800 FGA more than you need. You also have high turnovers, high fouls, and really, really poor shooting. Kobe is usually not drafted at all, let alone in the second round, and is a very bad fit for this format. Hakeem is not really a first round pick, especially not when you’re using the 91-92 version, which I’m guessing is for budget purposes.

Rondo is typically a late round pick if he’s taken at all; his EFG is hard to hide because of how often he shoots, his horrendous TO% swamps all the value he gives you in other spots, and you’re not playing his best season. Scottie has value but doesn’t fit in this context, Giddey is a terrible fit.

Next time try to cut out one or two high usage guys from your draft, you don’t need nearly as many scorers as you’ve drafted. Try to focus on more efficient players; the ADP and most winning player lists can be good guides as to players who are worth drafting early.

Thanks for doing these Ragged! I was so excited to built some all 100 defense juggernaut then I realized I was getting to 18k mins with my money lol. So I pivoted and went for efg and assists. Lamelo was probably my third or 4th choice but everyone else went. I actually really like him despite his mediocre efg he shoot’s a lot fts and makes them at high rate, great rebounder and passer and shoots a lot of 3s… Except the fouling how the hell does a guard foul that much. Oh well I think you got my team mapped out well other than not bringing up my assists. I’ll almost never go into the 60s and average around 79%. I think this team can break 40 off scoring and front court defense after that we’ll see.

Yo I will take that analysis ragged thank you. As for Mirotic - he has DRB over 20 and defense over 50 and I could not have a drop in usage there so I had to take what I could get. When you draft Moses Malone you have to cut some corners.

Great job raggedclaws, although I think you like my team more than I do. I hope you’re right.