Agreed rails, and I acknowledged in my rebuttal ("There are other issues ...") that of course there are other issues that led to people leaving.

But there was a clear drop after the announcement, and it's quite instructive that DI still has full rewards points and hasn't suffered the same precipitous drop. Not to mention we both know how outraged many vets were, and were very open that it was causing them to get rid of their DII/DIII teams. It's not merely a presumption.

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 11/05/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By _hannibal_ on 11/05/2009
There are a lot of assumptions behind your statements based on data that you do not have access to and WIS does. Given that WIS a) has the data

And I forgot to address this specifically. Actually, we have data. Look at the # of sims in DIII when they had rewards points and plenty of vets helping out, and look at the # of sims in DIII now.

DII and DIII have mostly become vast wastelands. DI has more or less held its population steady. There are other issues, but rewards points was a driving force.

Anyone with even a slight degree of objectivity can see the before-and-after and the data that accompanies it. It's damning.

Thats skewed info imo. There are plenty of external forces (mainly the economy and job layoffs) that you are leaving out of your so called objective statement. I can tell you with certainty that under TK - WIS has never been in the red in profitability despite all your claims of mistakes. I'm not saying mistakes weren't made, but none that caused this game to be unprofitable for WIS.

If price per season is an issue buy the 10-pack --- its about $6 a season ;)

Again, I acknowledged that there are other issues. We all know this.

That doesn't change two things:

1. There was a clear and noticeable exodus from DII/DIII after the reward points cutback.

2. DI, with full rewards points, has maintained, while DII and DIII were badly hit. If it were merely the economy (which, by the way, I think is a very minor factor in all of this), the difference between DI and II/III wouldn't be so pronounced. We watched many, many veteran coaches give up long-time dynasties after the reward points change. That is a fact.

No doubt that people's frustration with the engine and implementation of potential (both the fault of your boy TK) were significant factors. But reward points still stands as a major factor in the exodus from DII/DIII.

Quote: Originally posted by dalter on 11/05/2009Again, I acknowledged that there are other issues. We all know this.That doesn't change two things:1. There was a clear and noticeable exodus from DII/DIII after the reward points cutback. 2. DI, with full rewards points, has maintained, while DII and DIII were badly hit. If it were merely the economy (which, by the way, I think is a very minor factor in all of this), the difference between DI and II/III wouldn't be so pronounced. We watched many, many veteran coaches give up long-time dynasties after the reward points change. That is a fact.No doubt that people's frustration with the engine and implementation of potential (both the fault of your boy TK) were significant factors. But reward points still stands as a major factor in the exodus from DII/DIII.

Dalter you are welcome to your opinion but you have not convinced me.

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 11/05/2009

Again, I acknowledged that there are other issues. We all know this.

That doesn't change two things:

1. There was a clear and noticeable exodus from DII/DIII after the reward points cutback.

2. DI, with full rewards points, has maintained, while DII and DIII were badly hit. If it were merely the economy (which, by the way, I think is a very minor factor in all of this), the difference between DI and II/III wouldn't be so pronounced. We watched many, many veteran coaches give up long-time dynasties after the reward points change. That is a fact.

No doubt that people's frustration with the engine and implementation of potential (both the fault of your boy TK) were significant factors. But reward points still stands as a major factor in the exodus from DII/DIII.

discounting the economy is a mistake. 500,000 people have been losing jobs every month for a year.

Another big factor for vets reducing teams is just plain life and time commitments. Since I've started on this site I've gotten marrried, moved, have had more and more job responsibilities thrown upon me due to promotions, my wife requires my time now, I was in grad school for 2 years again requiring more time. I've not only cut out HD from 8 to 1 team but also fantasy football leagues, etc. I would wager other vets are in the same boat - many have had more than one child since starting HD.

When I had to choose what I had time for and what I can cut I realized I had no time for DII and DIII teams. I enjoy DI the most - so why would I give up those teams? I've won HD championships. All thats is aquiring my dream schools (UCLA and UK) and I can't do that with a DIII dynasty. Hell, I gave up 20 seasons at GT and a few at UConn too.

Reward points were not the kicker. There is a life cycle on any game. I even play xbox a lot less. Its not the money, its not the reward points. Life causes us to choose... some may choose DIII and DII over DI... but most vets I know like DI the most. Its called time management/prioritization.



Look - I agree that there was an exodus after the reward point cutbacks... but that was not the whole issue - It could have been the straw that broke the camels back for many. CS was a bigger issue at the time imo. WIS, and I agree, should not want vets supplimenting their DI play by beating up on newbs with an A+ DIII team. they should want to incent upward divisional movement to make room for more newbs. The con to this move is less vets in DIII to coach newbs... but this is a business, and reducing 930 free seasons of gameplay every 45 days is a smart move imo despite the con. The bad move on wis' part is not using that extra revenue to advertise and fill the lower divisions.

I should add - It's not hard to get to DII. A PIT appearance gets a team to the next level.

Quote: Originally Posted By moy23 on 11/05/2009If price per season is an issue buy the 10-pack --- its about $6 a season ;

It's $100 for 10 seasons...

Quote: Originally Posted By wronoj on 11/05/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By moy23 on 11/05/2009
If price per season is an issue buy the 10-pack --- its about $6 a season ;)

It's $100 for 10 seasons...

heh - good point. $10 is less than $13 a season though ;)

I had 2 teams and cut back to 1 because of price. Like others have echoed, I'd go back to 2 if it were like $8.

On the other hand, potential... while I love it and want it to stay, creates a lot more time and effort in recruiting, so it's a pain to have multiple teams. I'm not sure if I have the time to effectively recruit 2 or even 3 teams.

Quote: Originally Posted By moy23 on 11/05/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By wronoj on 11/05/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By moy23 on 11/05/2009
If price per season is an issue buy the 10-pack --- its about $6 a season ;)

It's $100 for 10 seasons...

heh - good point. $10 is less than $13 a season though ;

funny thing, moy-- there's another active thread about the WIS Accountant and the statement that it's $6 per month... i just read it a second ago.

so that makes you proof that their semi-devious marketing works. ;)

Quote: Originally Posted By _hannibal_ on 11/05/2009

Quote: Originally posted by dalter on 11/05/2009

Again, I acknowledged that there are other issues. We all know this.

That doesn't change two things:

1. There was a clear and noticeable exodus from DII/DIII after the reward points cutback.

2. DI, with full rewards points, has maintained, while DII and DIII were badly hit. If it were merely the economy (which, by the way, I think is a very minor factor in all of this), the difference between DI and II/III wouldn't be so pronounced. We watched many, many veteran coaches give up long-time dynasties after the reward points change. That is a fact.

No doubt that people's frustration with the engine and implementation of potential (both the fault of your boy TK) were significant factors. But reward points still stands as a major factor in the exodus from DII/DIII.

Dalter you are welcome to your opinion but you have not convinced me.

It's not even close to an opinion. It's a stone-cold fact that many coaches abandoned long-time DII and DIII programs in the wake of the reward points debacle. They were on here and the CC's loud-and-clear, very succintly communicating why they were abandoning these teams.

That's not to say there haven't also been other problems. And that's not to say that there haven't been other people who've for different reasons.

But if you're attempting to claim that a bunch of coaches didn't abandon DII/DIII after the reward points fiasco went down, then you're quite simply engaging in revisionist history.

The biggest problem, bar none, is lack of advertising.

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1) I agree with dcy0827, you can have the best product but without advertising no one knows about it. WIS is only going to get so much out of the existing base of customers.

2) I think the apparent mass exodus from DIII was a result of eliminating FREEHD. Alot of those DIII human coached teams were just existing coaches making another screen name.