Seriously? 72 fouls/95FT - Page 9 - Hoops Dynasty

Posts: 907 (0)

Hall of Famer

114 1 109 1

Prospect

Posted by isack24 on 6/28/2010 11:23:00 AM (view original):
Posted by brrexkl on 6/28/2010 4:30:00 AM (view original):
Isack "Eliminate the Press as a Base Defense". On an individual bases we already can. It's called "Don't Run the Press".

Antonsirius "Since the combo defense addition all those seasons ago, I have never played FCP without having a second defense I could mix in and fall back on in matchups and situations FCP didn't seem appropriate for." This seems like a Reasonable Approach. After all, you could also use that 2nd Defense when Up 12 in the 1st Half, etc. It wouldn't always JUST be a Last Minute Defense. It would have uses whenever you had a lead, thus getting more play and thus being more valuable. After all, TIME is crucial when a team is down, so every time you can force them to take time to shoot you're helping your chances to win. It DOES have a Negative, or Cost... that is SOME player Growth.
I still have to play against the press and fastbreak. That affects my team.

No team runs the press like WiS's version. In reality, to press in the backcourt at all times, trap in the halfcourt, and then also run fastbreak (if that's what they're doing), a team would have to have 12 guys with 90+ staminas, and even then, who knows?

It's time to get rid of press/fastbreak as base defense/offense.

And it is impossible to say "just don't run the press", not just because, like you say, you have to play against it, but also because it is unfair to those, pre-engine change, who built programs around it. if it is to be eliminated (of even if it is not) then admin/seble should allow you to "switch" to another set, without penalty.

6/28/2010 3:26 PM

daalter

Posts: 326 (0)

Hall of Famer

40

Prospect

Of course.

6/28/2010 3:56 PM

isack24

Posts: 1566 (0)

Hall of Famer

81 19

Prospect

Posted by deberly on 6/28/2010 3:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 6/28/2010 11:23:00 AM (view original):
Posted by brrexkl on 6/28/2010 4:30:00 AM (view original):
Isack "Eliminate the Press as a Base Defense". On an individual bases we already can. It's called "Don't Run the Press".

Antonsirius "Since the combo defense addition all those seasons ago, I have never played FCP without having a second defense I could mix in and fall back on in matchups and situations FCP didn't seem appropriate for." This seems like a Reasonable Approach. After all, you could also use that 2nd Defense when Up 12 in the 1st Half, etc. It wouldn't always JUST be a Last Minute Defense. It would have uses whenever you had a lead, thus getting more play and thus being more valuable. After all, TIME is crucial when a team is down, so every time you can force them to take time to shoot you're helping your chances to win. It DOES have a Negative, or Cost... that is SOME player Growth.
I still have to play against the press and fastbreak. That affects my team.

No team runs the press like WiS's version. In reality, to press in the backcourt at all times, trap in the halfcourt, and then also run fastbreak (if that's what they're doing), a team would have to have 12 guys with 90+ staminas, and even then, who knows?

It's time to get rid of press/fastbreak as base defense/offense.
And it is impossible to say "just don't run the press", not just because, like you say, you have to play against it, but also because it is unfair to those, pre-engine change, who built programs around it. if it is to be eliminated (of even if it is not) then admin/seble should allow you to "switch" to another set, without penalty.

Absolutely. That would only be fair.

And I do think press should be available as a "rider" defense. But it would require significantly more stamina, to the point where it couldn't be played too often without absolutely elite depth and stamina, and even then, only on made baskets and in-bounds in the backcourt. And no more ridiculous constant trapping, teams would have to play a real halfcourt defense.

And fastbreak should just be abolished altogether. Uptempo is essentially fastbreak anyway, isn't it?

6/28/2010 4:00 PM

brrexkl

Posts: 132 (0)

Veteran

3 23 1

Prospect

The only problem is, by using the Fast Break or Full Court Press, you are TELLING WIS you want them to STAY as Primaries. You can't USE THEM and also say they shouldn't be there. You are merely advocating them by playing them.

  If you REALLY felt these were wrong, you wouldn't use them.  Winning Teams have won without them before, and still do. You don't have to use them to Win. Until WIS sees a relative lack of enjoyment in the game due to these things, and until they see a Decrease in the Usage of these things... why would they change them?

  You are essentially lighting the crack pipe while telling your little brother 'Don't do drugs!' WIS isn't going to listen to you say how broke these things are or that they should be abolished if you are using them.  They will look at you like you are crazy, just like the little brother.

And the point of it all was this, Pressing with the Lead is a Bad Choice... and one the Coach Makes. If you don't want to Press with the lead, you have a few choices. Just because you don't like any of those choices doesn't mean you don't have alternatives. After all, is that 10-15 Minutes to spend on Zone or M2M worth the Growth if it keeps you from losing games you have a lead in because you keep pressing?  (Especially since you could toss that Zone or M2M out there any time you had a decent lead, say 4 or more points, maybe 6 or 8 even if you don't want it out there much).

  We KNOW how the Engine works on this. To expect other results at this time is foolish.

You are absolutely right, though.  The way FB and FCP are here is insane, no team would run either the way it is done here.

6/28/2010 5:58 PM

isack24

Posts: 1566 (0)

Hall of Famer

81 19

Prospect

I don't use either of them. I'm not sure how many times I need to tell you that I wasn't pressing. If I had to guess who is using the crack pipe...

6/28/2010 7:33 PM

isack24

Posts: 1566 (0)

Hall of Famer

81 19

Prospect

And just because people use things, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be abolished. To stick with your crack pipe analogy, just because people use crack, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be illegal. People like and use FCP? So what, it's stupid and urealistic.

6/28/2010 7:34 PM

brrexkl

Posts: 132 (0)

Veteran

3 23 1

Prospect

That the 'you' as a General Term. In this case 'you' is whoever uses FCP or FB. If you don't, then you have every right to contact WIS and let them know why they don't work and shouldn't even be Base Offense/Defense.

The other Coach, who had the lead that they lost to you (and your great FT shooting) Pressed with a Lead. Not a good idea. He didn't Study a 2nd Defense, so he couldn't change Defenses to preserve his Lead. Not a good idea. His Fouls added to the Score quickly by stopping the Clock and giving you FTs. This lead, partially, to a very unrealistic Finish, which upset you (the Finish, not the other Coach).

Again, I'll state the two major points here. (1) The Outcome Occured do to a Coach's Game Plan Failure. (2) Using a FB or FCP only allows WIS to keep the FB and FCP as Primary Sets. (2b) If you don't like them, you don't have to use them. Game Plan and Practice other things.

6/28/2010 8:13 PM

deberly

Posts: 907 (0)

Hall of Famer

114 1 109 1

Prospect

Posted by brrexkl on 6/28/2010 5:58:00 PM (view original):
The only problem is, by using the Fast Break or Full Court Press, you are TELLING WIS you want them to STAY as Primaries. You can't USE THEM and also say they shouldn't be there. You are merely advocating them by playing them.

  If you REALLY felt these were wrong, you wouldn't use them.  Winning Teams have won without them before, and still do. You don't have to use them to Win. Until WIS sees a relative lack of enjoyment in the game due to these things, and until they see a Decrease in the Usage of these things... why would they change them?

  You are essentially lighting the crack pipe while telling your little brother 'Don't do drugs!' WIS isn't going to listen to you say how broke these things are or that they should be abolished if you are using them.  They will look at you like you are crazy, just like the little brother.

And the point of it all was this, Pressing with the Lead is a Bad Choice... and one the Coach Makes. If you don't want to Press with the lead, you have a few choices. Just because you don't like any of those choices doesn't mean you don't have alternatives. After all, is that 10-15 Minutes to spend on Zone or M2M worth the Growth if it keeps you from losing games you have a lead in because you keep pressing?  (Especially since you could toss that Zone or M2M out there any time you had a decent lead, say 4 or more points, maybe 6 or 8 even if you don't want it out there much).

  We KNOW how the Engine works on this. To expect other results at this time is foolish.

You are absolutely right, though.  The way FB and FCP are here is insane, no team would run either the way it is done here.

Uh, sort of. The flaw in the crack analogy is that the engine changed. It is as if crack suddenly became illegal and harmful, all at once, without warning. Whereas in real life it is certainly reasonable to say to the crack addict -- your fault, you shouldn't have tried it in the first place, but it is not like you didn't know it was illegal/harmful. Here, FB/press wasn't "bad" before. It had its flaws and strengths like everything else. But not like this.

6/29/2010 8:22 AM

acn24

Posts: 1020 (0)

Hall of Famer

260 357 172

Rookie

Posted by brrexkl on 6/28/2010 8:13:00 PM (view original):
That the 'you' as a General Term. In this case 'you' is whoever uses FCP or FB. If you don't, then you have every right to contact WIS and let them know why they don't work and shouldn't even be Base Offense/Defense.

The other Coach, who had the lead that they lost to you (and your great FT shooting) Pressed with a Lead. Not a good idea. He didn't Study a 2nd Defense, so he couldn't change Defenses to preserve his Lead. Not a good idea. His Fouls added to the Score quickly by stopping the Clock and giving you FTs. This lead, partially, to a very unrealistic Finish, which upset you (the Finish, not the other Coach).

Again, I'll state the two major points here. (1) The Outcome Occured do to a Coach's Game Plan Failure. (2) Using a FB or FCP only allows WIS to keep the FB and FCP as Primary Sets. (2b) If you don't like them, you don't have to use them. Game Plan and Practice other things.

Why would you say that using FB and/or FCP stops WIS from eliminating them? I don't think that is the case at all when seble decides that they should be eliminated as base sets they will be eliminated and coaches will be given a chance to switch the FB/FCP IQs to another set. seble has already stated that FB/FCP as WIS envisions them should only be preferences or settings related to a more traditional set.

Could you speak to the future of the fastbreak as an offense? (dknox - Hall of Famer - 2:56 PM)

In my mind, both fastbreak and fullcourt press should not be base sets. They should be add-ons to a more traditional offense or defense. The question has always been "What happens in the half-court situation?", and that's a valid question. So I think it would work better to have them be separate preference settings to complement a traditional offense and defense.

6/29/2010 8:41 AM

brrexkl

Posts: 132 (0)

Veteran

3 23 1

Prospect

Here we agree completely.    Options like "Press on Every Made Basket"  "Press only on Made Baskets when Up By X or More/Less" and "Press only on Made Baskets when Down by X or More/Less" would make much more sense. Then you could be Kentucky or Arkansas back when they were doing this on every made basket, or you could do this only as a Desperation in the closing minutes. And the 'Only on Made Baskets' is crucial. So you'd still need a Primary Defense.

  Same for Fast Break. What happens when the other team makes the shot?  Do you just roll the ball down the court to them?  Obviously not, but what ever they are running can't be what you asked of them... it's simply not possible.

The Reason I say using it makes WIS less likely to toss it... Using It VALIDATES it being viable and useful.  Why take that away from Coaches that obviously (as seen by using it) like it? I'm glad they are looking at changing it... but when?  Just had a new Engine and Update, right?  "No time like the present"... but it didn't happen. I'm fairly sure if WIS saw a major decrease in FB/FCP and posts saying "Man, I could have used that at the end of the game but no way I use it for a Base" they would be quicker to put resources into changing it. Until then, if they use it don't fix it (to paraphrase an old addage).

I do hope I haven't came across as being snotty with you, not my intent. There are things we do, certainley, agree on. After all, we are both sane adults here (aren't we?  LOL!) My only point was we know the Engine DOESN'T work like this yet, so the settings of your Opponent (which lead to the Results you question) are exactly what made such a thing possible.

6/29/2010 1:15 PM

acn24

Posts: 1020 (0)

Hall of Famer

260 357 172

Rookie

Posted by brrexkl on 6/29/2010 1:15:00 PM (view original):
Here we agree completely.    Options like "Press on Every Made Basket"  "Press only on Made Baskets when Up By X or More/Less" and "Press only on Made Baskets when Down by X or More/Less" would make much more sense. Then you could be Kentucky or Arkansas back when they were doing this on every made basket, or you could do this only as a Desperation in the closing minutes. And the 'Only on Made Baskets' is crucial. So you'd still need a Primary Defense.

  Same for Fast Break. What happens when the other team makes the shot?  Do you just roll the ball down the court to them?  Obviously not, but what ever they are running can't be what you asked of them... it's simply not possible.

The Reason I say using it makes WIS less likely to toss it... Using It VALIDATES it being viable and useful.  Why take that away from Coaches that obviously (as seen by using it) like it? I'm glad they are looking at changing it... but when?  Just had a new Engine and Update, right?  "No time like the present"... but it didn't happen. I'm fairly sure if WIS saw a major decrease in FB/FCP and posts saying "Man, I could have used that at the end of the game but no way I use it for a Base" they would be quicker to put resources into changing it. Until then, if they use it don't fix it (to paraphrase an old addage).

I do hope I haven't came across as being snotty with you, not my intent. There are things we do, certainley, agree on. After all, we are both sane adults here (aren't we?  LOL!) My only point was we know the Engine DOESN'T work like this yet, so the settings of your Opponent (which lead to the Results you question) are exactly what made such a thing possible.

I submitted a ticket, and they said there is no timetable for it. If people sent in lots of tickets that might be hurried up.

I still argue against the idea that having people play the sets validates them - they are already validated by the fact that WIS offers them as base defenses. I think that as long as they are offered, they should work properly, and that would include the logic that a coach leading by 6-8 points with a minute left in the game would be screaming at his kids "DO NOT FOUL" during every timeout and stoppage in play.

6/29/2010 3:40 PM

furry_nipps

Posts: 661 (0)

Hall of Famer

66

Prospect

Everyone is kind of taking this thing way out. How many games are blown because you keep trapping late with a lead with press? Probably not many. I've been pressing for years - RL time, and this has never been an issue. You are acting like this happens on a game by game basis. If it did, then yes waste the minutes to stop it from pressing at the end of the game, or switch completely from using it. This does not happen often enough to waste valuable minutes. That is what everyone is trying to get to you. The people who press need to understand you will foul a lot using it, and I'm sure we do... At least I do. This could happen in the first half, or the end of the game. Obviously rarely it happens when you have a big lead late in the game - big deal. How many games have been simmed with coaches using press and sticking with it at the end of the game? Quite a bit. How often has this been an issue? Once? And this has turned into a huge debate about what to do because it isn't right? Over ONE game? Am I missing something here.

6/29/2010 3:41 PM

brrexkl

Posts: 132 (0)

Veteran

3 23 1

Prospect

In the immortal words of John Travolta from Pulp Fiction "You give him that money Jules and I'll shoot him on Mother F****** Principle". It's the principle of it.

The entire Thread originated because something 'unreal' happened... yet it only happened because the Coach that Pressed set his team to do something real teams wouldn't do. Usually this isn't an issue, but in this game it really lead to a crazy and somewhat unrealistic finish. I find that to be greatly entertaining, stretching the bounderies of Possibility as it did. Some were angered or even offended by it.

It is what it is. My only point was that Game Planning was the leading contributor to it. It has grown, greatly. I do find the differing Philosophies about it to be entertaining and some what educating.

6/29/2010 4:35 PM

deberly

Posts: 907 (0)

Hall of Famer

114 1 109 1

Prospect

I think, though, if this were simply an issue of a one-game outlier, we would have looked at it and gone, "hmmpf." But this game is hardly the only one, we are seeing extreme results like this more and more.

I have Wisconsin in Tark. I run press and FB, always have. I am 3-2 and pretty mediocre. I lost to an pretty good St. John's team at home by 27. I beat a much less talented Portland St. team, on the road, by 87.

Of COURSE game planning, talent, style of play, tempo, matchups, etc., PARTIALLY explain these extremes. I don't think anybody denies that. But these extremes are a little ridiculous and suggest that the realism of the new engine is lacking. Realism is the goal, right?

6/30/2010 11:15 AM

acn24

Posts: 1020 (0)

Hall of Famer

260 357 172

Rookie

I think that we'll see some extremes just because of roster and game planning contraints that we have, that real life coaches don't have. To use the Wisconsin/Portland St game as an example - Wisconsin didn't start running a slow down/hold ball offense until 1 minute left and a 130-43 lead. In a real game, that would have happened when it was a 40+ point game with 16 minutes remaining. The size of rosters (and the complete uselessness of every walkon, at any level) also affects this. In a real life game you would be seeing walkons playing most of the last 10-12 minutes of this game, but because we only have 12 roster spots and most teams go 9-11 players deep we don't have the group of walkons. And even though Wisconsin's walkon actually looks like he might be a decent D3 player, because of the way depth charts are structured - most coaches don't even bother to put their walkons on the depth chart, so they never play.

6/30/2010 12:27 PM

Forums

Seriously? 72 fouls/95FT Topic

Search Criteria