Posted by shoe3 on 2/24/2022 8:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 2/24/2022 5:33:00 PM (view original):
And how would Sim recruiting work with just 1 giant pool? Sims are just going to randomly and arbitrarily start signing players from this pool? So you'll have players with sims from all 3 divisions recruiting the same player? So you'll have D1 Sim teams with D3 projected players which will be indistinguishable from walkons.

Just restrict the divisions and you solve the problems without needing to introduce any downside to the other divisions. And you wouldn't need to do a bunch of stuff to offset those cons like increasing budget, reprogramming sim recruiting etc. We're not building a rocket ship, no need to overcomplicate things.

The idea that there is “no downside to any other divisions” if you cap divisions is just ridiculous, and we’ve been over this so many times in the last 5 years Benis obviously knows what I’m going to say, but since he like to pretend he doesn’t read anything I write, I’ll say it again here.

Restricting divisions benefits the teams at the top the most. It obviously affects the other divisions *a great deal* because now higher division schools will have a bunch of good backup options just sitting there for them, without worrying about lower division schools nipping their heels. This nerfs the power of prioritization, which is ultimately exactly what these guys want, of course. This will affect all schools in all divisions, as power schools feel more comfortable loading up on a few, rather than spreading effort out early. This is a move toward less upward mobility.

The current model, though clunky and unrealistic in places, and with room for improvement, *features upward mobility.* That was seble’s goal, and he succeeded brilliantly there in the big picture, and that’s probably the nicest thing I will ever say about the guy. New coaches can compete with veterans in their very first recruiting season, if they know what they’re doing, and they know what is possible. All they need is the information. That *will not be remotely true if you restrict divisions.* And in the end, no other argument really needs to matter. I can dream all day about the ways I think this or that idea could make the process more intelligent, but in the end, no change is light years better than what benis wants.

Agree with shoe. The current system does allow the new guys to chase the same level of player as the powerhouse.

Capping divisions only gives better options to the powerhouse without letting the new guy even see those recruits. It is a worn out idea from ancient times when the game wasn't worth playing

Posted by ftbeaglesfan on 2/24/2022 10:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 2/24/2022 8:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 2/24/2022 5:33:00 PM (view original):
And how would Sim recruiting work with just 1 giant pool? Sims are just going to randomly and arbitrarily start signing players from this pool? So you'll have players with sims from all 3 divisions recruiting the same player? So you'll have D1 Sim teams with D3 projected players which will be indistinguishable from walkons.

Just restrict the divisions and you solve the problems without needing to introduce any downside to the other divisions. And you wouldn't need to do a bunch of stuff to offset those cons like increasing budget, reprogramming sim recruiting etc. We're not building a rocket ship, no need to overcomplicate things.

The idea that there is “no downside to any other divisions” if you cap divisions is just ridiculous, and we’ve been over this so many times in the last 5 years Benis obviously knows what I’m going to say, but since he like to pretend he doesn’t read anything I write, I’ll say it again here.

Restricting divisions benefits the teams at the top the most. It obviously affects the other divisions *a great deal* because now higher division schools will have a bunch of good backup options just sitting there for them, without worrying about lower division schools nipping their heels. This nerfs the power of prioritization, which is ultimately exactly what these guys want, of course. This will affect all schools in all divisions, as power schools feel more comfortable loading up on a few, rather than spreading effort out early. This is a move toward less upward mobility.

The current model, though clunky and unrealistic in places, and with room for improvement, *features upward mobility.* That was seble’s goal, and he succeeded brilliantly there in the big picture, and that’s probably the nicest thing I will ever say about the guy. New coaches can compete with veterans in their very first recruiting season, if they know what they’re doing, and they know what is possible. All they need is the information. That *will not be remotely true if you restrict divisions.* And in the end, no other argument really needs to matter. I can dream all day about the ways I think this or that idea could make the process more intelligent, but in the end, no change is light years better than what benis wants.

Agree with shoe. The current system does allow the new guys to chase the same level of player as the powerhouse.

Capping divisions only gives better options to the powerhouse without letting the new guy even see those recruits. It is a worn out idea from ancient times when the game wasn't worth playing

Explain how the newbie would not see the same players in a capped division as the vet? The statement makes no sense. Capped division means everyone sees the same recruits. It sounds like you're referring to pulldowns and dropdowns which noone is asking for.

Posted by topdogggbm on 2/24/2022 9:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by poncho0091 on 2/23/2022 6:54:00 PM (view original):
I am open to the premise of closing off the D3 pool to D3 only while leaving D2 open to D1 players as the more experienced coaches will typically stick around D2 or D1. I also wish D1 would stop dipping in the D2 pool. If I, as a D2 school, go up to D1 recruits, I fully understand I may get my player scooped out of nowhere by a D1, but a D1 school has no business even looking at D2 players and it's infuriating to get a D2 prospect that you likely went after hard for the safety of securing him, only for a D1 to show up. Maybe they should up D1 pool talent to prevent the need of D1 looking at D2.

Cubs experiment here for example took the most viable D2 recruit in the last cycle that I was pursuing in what was a fairly abysmal class of big men, especially when I really needed them. I'm not that bothered by it, but it was definitely a "well that's annoying" moment without realizing he was even doing this experiment.

Edit, I think I'm the local D2 competition he was referencing in the post above for the guard, because I went all in hoping he wasn't serious about him lol.

I'm learning along the way in this discussion. I was generally "ok" with one big pool. But after reading some comments, i see how it can be an issue. But there's ways to make it work I'm sure. Filters of some sort, as some have mentioned.

But I have NO problem with D1 searching the D2 pool. Budgets are what they are. Bigger for higher division, smaller for lower division. Makes sense. But as far as the talent, a player in the D2 pool should never be off limits to D1 teams. D1 can do whatever they want. And it should be that way. I am a D2 coach at heart. And I made a living off picking my entire roster from the D1 pool. To think I'd be upset about ONE player getting signed from my D2 pool at a D1 school is just not being fair. We can't have rules that benefit only D2 and not D1 in the process. "D2 can reach up endlessly, all they want. But D1 can't reach down for ONE player". Saying that out loud should make it obvious that its silly to think that way. No matter how frustrating it may be

That statement was more frustration on my part. Kind of along the lines that someone said earlier that it's unnecessary for a D1 to drop down to D2. Capped divisions would resolve the issue both ways. No more delayed signings. No D1s complaining that they couldn't beat out a D2 or D3 late for a player they showed up last minute on. No imbalance of top teams successfully outrecruiting newbies because newbies don't understand how to reach up.

Posted by poncho0091 on 2/25/2022 1:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ftbeaglesfan on 2/24/2022 10:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 2/24/2022 8:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 2/24/2022 5:33:00 PM (view original):
And how would Sim recruiting work with just 1 giant pool? Sims are just going to randomly and arbitrarily start signing players from this pool? So you'll have players with sims from all 3 divisions recruiting the same player? So you'll have D1 Sim teams with D3 projected players which will be indistinguishable from walkons.

Just restrict the divisions and you solve the problems without needing to introduce any downside to the other divisions. And you wouldn't need to do a bunch of stuff to offset those cons like increasing budget, reprogramming sim recruiting etc. We're not building a rocket ship, no need to overcomplicate things.

The idea that there is “no downside to any other divisions” if you cap divisions is just ridiculous, and we’ve been over this so many times in the last 5 years Benis obviously knows what I’m going to say, but since he like to pretend he doesn’t read anything I write, I’ll say it again here.

Restricting divisions benefits the teams at the top the most. It obviously affects the other divisions *a great deal* because now higher division schools will have a bunch of good backup options just sitting there for them, without worrying about lower division schools nipping their heels. This nerfs the power of prioritization, which is ultimately exactly what these guys want, of course. This will affect all schools in all divisions, as power schools feel more comfortable loading up on a few, rather than spreading effort out early. This is a move toward less upward mobility.

The current model, though clunky and unrealistic in places, and with room for improvement, *features upward mobility.* That was seble’s goal, and he succeeded brilliantly there in the big picture, and that’s probably the nicest thing I will ever say about the guy. New coaches can compete with veterans in their very first recruiting season, if they know what they’re doing, and they know what is possible. All they need is the information. That *will not be remotely true if you restrict divisions.* And in the end, no other argument really needs to matter. I can dream all day about the ways I think this or that idea could make the process more intelligent, but in the end, no change is light years better than what benis wants.

Agree with shoe. The current system does allow the new guys to chase the same level of player as the powerhouse.

Capping divisions only gives better options to the powerhouse without letting the new guy even see those recruits. It is a worn out idea from ancient times when the game wasn't worth playing

Explain how the newbie would not see the same players in a capped division as the vet? The statement makes no sense. Capped division means everyone sees the same recruits. It sounds like you're referring to pulldowns and dropdowns which noone is asking for.

I think a lot of folks would be asking for it, pulldowns and drop downs have always been pretty popular.

But even if it was a HARD cap unlike what we had in the last version, we still have the issue of a much smaller pool, which emphasizes the prestige (and experience) advantage. New players who rise fast in 3.0 do so by finding ways to get solid talent without going head to head with A+ teams. Those paths are much more limited if we reserve all those backups for the higher division schools, and don’t let them drop.

Posted by poncho0091 on 2/24/2022 9:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 2/24/2022 8:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 2/24/2022 5:33:00 PM (view original):
And how would Sim recruiting work with just 1 giant pool? Sims are just going to randomly and arbitrarily start signing players from this pool? So you'll have players with sims from all 3 divisions recruiting the same player? So you'll have D1 Sim teams with D3 projected players which will be indistinguishable from walkons.

Just restrict the divisions and you solve the problems without needing to introduce any downside to the other divisions. And you wouldn't need to do a bunch of stuff to offset those cons like increasing budget, reprogramming sim recruiting etc. We're not building a rocket ship, no need to overcomplicate things.

The idea that there is “no downside to any other divisions” if you cap divisions is just ridiculous, and we’ve been over this so many times in the last 5 years Benis obviously knows what I’m going to say, but since he like to pretend he doesn’t read anything I write, I’ll say it again here.

Restricting divisions benefits the teams at the top the most. It obviously affects the other divisions *a great deal* because now higher division schools will have a bunch of good backup options just sitting there for them, without worrying about lower division schools nipping their heels. This nerfs the power of prioritization, which is ultimately exactly what these guys want, of course. This will affect all schools in all divisions, as power schools feel more comfortable loading up on a few, rather than spreading effort out early. This is a move toward less upward mobility.

The current model, though clunky and unrealistic in places, and with room for improvement, *features upward mobility.* That was seble’s goal, and he succeeded brilliantly there in the big picture, and that’s probably the nicest thing I will ever say about the guy. New coaches can compete with veterans in their very first recruiting season, if they know what they’re doing, and they know what is possible. All they need is the information. That *will not be remotely true if you restrict divisions.* And in the end, no other argument really needs to matter. I can dream all day about the ways I think this or that idea could make the process more intelligent, but in the end, no change is light years better than what benis wants.

This is just not true outside of the lower end of DI schools maybe. Under the current scenario, new users have no idea how to compete with the vets and no idea to pursue a player who is clearly out of their range. Even worse they might try to pursue a player out of their range and waste all of their resources leaving them further behind the vet. Under capped divisions, the competition for the top players will typically use up the vets resources as they battle off other vets, the same way you see in DI with everyone pursuing the same top tier guy. This is how it used to be with the exception of dropdown players which would no longer be a thing. A newbie could just as easily show up on the best player that division has to offer and beat out a vet, forcing the vet to scramble for backups or back off if he has multiple spots to fill.

Lol… what?

So my next question....... cub, is this what you expected your thread for your experiment would look like? Haha. We are some argumentative, long winded people here.... and I love it!

Posted by topdogggbm on 2/25/2022 4:28:00 AM (view original):
So my next question....... cub, is this what you expected your thread for your experiment would look like? Haha. We are some argumentative, long winded people here.... and I love it!

It's been pretty cordial at least!

Posted by shoe3 on 2/25/2022 2:05:00 AM (view original):

Posted by poncho0091 on 2/25/2022 1:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ftbeaglesfan on 2/24/2022 10:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 2/24/2022 8:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 2/24/2022 5:33:00 PM (view original):
And how would Sim recruiting work with just 1 giant pool? Sims are just going to randomly and arbitrarily start signing players from this pool? So you'll have players with sims from all 3 divisions recruiting the same player? So you'll have D1 Sim teams with D3 projected players which will be indistinguishable from walkons.

Just restrict the divisions and you solve the problems without needing to introduce any downside to the other divisions. And you wouldn't need to do a bunch of stuff to offset those cons like increasing budget, reprogramming sim recruiting etc. We're not building a rocket ship, no need to overcomplicate things.

The idea that there is “no downside to any other divisions” if you cap divisions is just ridiculous, and we’ve been over this so many times in the last 5 years Benis obviously knows what I’m going to say, but since he like to pretend he doesn’t read anything I write, I’ll say it again here.

Restricting divisions benefits the teams at the top the most. It obviously affects the other divisions *a great deal* because now higher division schools will have a bunch of good backup options just sitting there for them, without worrying about lower division schools nipping their heels. This nerfs the power of prioritization, which is ultimately exactly what these guys want, of course. This will affect all schools in all divisions, as power schools feel more comfortable loading up on a few, rather than spreading effort out early. This is a move toward less upward mobility.

The current model, though clunky and unrealistic in places, and with room for improvement, *features upward mobility.* That was seble’s goal, and he succeeded brilliantly there in the big picture, and that’s probably the nicest thing I will ever say about the guy. New coaches can compete with veterans in their very first recruiting season, if they know what they’re doing, and they know what is possible. All they need is the information. That *will not be remotely true if you restrict divisions.* And in the end, no other argument really needs to matter. I can dream all day about the ways I think this or that idea could make the process more intelligent, but in the end, no change is light years better than what benis wants.

Agree with shoe. The current system does allow the new guys to chase the same level of player as the powerhouse.

Capping divisions only gives better options to the powerhouse without letting the new guy even see those recruits. It is a worn out idea from ancient times when the game wasn't worth playing

Explain how the newbie would not see the same players in a capped division as the vet? The statement makes no sense. Capped division means everyone sees the same recruits. It sounds like you're referring to pulldowns and dropdowns which noone is asking for.

I think a lot of folks would be asking for it, pulldowns and drop downs have always been pretty popular.

But even if it was a HARD cap unlike what we had in the last version, we still have the issue of a much smaller pool, which emphasizes the prestige (and experience) advantage. New players who rise fast in 3.0 do so by finding ways to get solid talent without going head to head with A+ teams. Those paths are much more limited if we reserve all those backups for the higher division schools, and don’t let them drop.

i think this sentiment is expressed by a couple/few people in multiple places in the last couple pages, and i don't really understand it. i really don't get what is even being said here, there's a lot of topics swirling around and i'm struggling to figure out which objections connect with which theoretical changes, or something!

are you mostly talking about d2/d3 here, or d1? i agree that is very important to keep parity in the system, the way we have it now where recruiting advantages are significantly less than they were. and i agree that is one of the best consequences of the 3.0 changes. could you help me out and clarify what change you are talking about here, and at which level (d1/d2/d3), where you are concerned about un-leveling the playing field?

Capping any level affects recruiting at all levels, because it’s an integrated ecosystem, and restricting recruits to their designated levels will have ripple effects. But I could go along with a D3 cap in theory IF that division was just basically completely lopped off from the rest of the game and made into a free to play, no credits sandbox (could also be used to test game engine tweaks, etc), an idea I’ve actually proposed a few times. But in that case, to preserve the functional market of D2 and D1 recruits, I think they need to turn up sim recruiting a little, because again, the game shouldn’t let the top teams of any division get away with lining up prime backups for basically free.

My primary concern is that it will hinder fluid competition at the D3 level. Capping is often presented as a way to help new D3 players, but it will hurt them the most, as it forces them to directly compete with the best teams in their division for the best players. Right now, new players can compete for exactly the same caliber talent that A+ D3 teams get - provided they know where to look. The problem isn’t the system, the problem is the lack of information about how it works (like knowing to actually select the higher level pools instead of D3 when scouting).

The resource-allocation aspect of the recruiting game is already straining the boundaries of college basketball recruiting gameplay. If we have to retain that aspect, the market has to be free and functional.

I just finished scouting for my d1 team in Allen and there is no way that making 1 large pool would be improvement for d1 users at all.

I have 313 players scouted to level 4 to evaluate. I go through this list of players and I chose 48 players for my list to recruit further.

If they were to roll the d2 and d3 players in together for the states I scouted, the pool would balloon to 1413 players that I need to evaluate. Assuming the budgets were adjusted to allow to me to even scout that many players, I'd return about the same number of players on my "go after list". So I'd only like to have 3% of the players that are scouted on my team. So I gotta sort through a pool that is ~95% crap to find viable players for my team. Why would I ever want to do that? It's just a waste of time.

I know 2 or 3 people like this idea but...yeah it's gonna be a no from me dawg.

Sacramento State is up to 4-3 this year!

Recruiting update, it’s not going well. This challenge could end up being way more long-term than I thought, I’ll need to build my prestige up to the C+/B- range to land optimal classes. The issue is that higher prestige D1 schools are trying to take my recruits. Two A- D1 schools and a B+ school are warring with me on three different guys. None of them are near that caliber of a player, so I’m guessing these coaches are really struggling with losing rolls and the increased D1 player population so they are having to sign super poor backup options. I (of course) have way more money than them, but 3 letter grades is too much if the higher D1s choose to commit serious resources as well. This definitely wasn’t an issue I forsaw (having to battle other much higher prestige D1 schools) but it shouldn’t be too bothersome in the long run when I am higher prestige myself. Until then it’s probably more PIs and 1R NT if I am lucky.

That being said, I feel the answer the my original question (is there enough talent there to have some decent success) is trending towards an emphatic yes. Specifically, I think 12 guy Fb/Press rosters could be really good potential. I just need to get the prestige to land that talent, since D- isn’t really enough.

Done with year 2! Ended up 13-14 but only 172 RPI so missed the PI by a lot.

Check the original post for an update!