Recently we had one of our frequent forum imbroglios that came to discuss mentoring and the mentor-mentee relationship. One part of the discussion was depth. 

While searching my ticket history for another thread, I rediscovered this old ticket that brushes against a little bit of the topic of that other discussion, so I've pasted it here just for FYI. 

7/3/2012 7:04 PM	dacj501
Hi, this question is in regards to the new fair Play Guidelines recently released. One part talks about restrictions on communicating about recruiting,  "Collusive transactions Collusion includes any act that supports bad, deceitful or illegal behavior agreed upon by two or more users. Here are a few examples: Discussing the pursuit of a recruit with another coach, including who is pursuing him and money that might have been spent." The language of this last sentence gives me pause, here's why. A few seasons back, I believe in Tark, one of my mentees moved into his first D I gig (at a northeastern mid major.) As it was his first time at D I, he had a lot of questions. He first searched and added to his watch list a number of players he thought would be good targets. He allowed me to take a look at his team and see his list. I advised him that his list was ok, but there were probably better players for his level out there, and searched a few out for him as examples (using his FSS and account) and added them to his watch list for him. As recruiting started, I helped him prioritize his targets based on who was being considered by other schools and who he should focus on. He had a lot of openings and a lot of cash, and ended up in a few battles. I advised him on how to determine if a battle was one he could win, and gave him tactics to use to win some of those battles. I was the coach at Alabama in the same world at the time. I never used Bama's FSS info to help him out, nor did I use his FSS info to help with Bama. What I did do was provide him a wealth of information that he took to heart to be able to effectively recruit on his own... I recognize that the only people who knew I was assisting my mentee were he and I, and therefore neither of us is likely to call anything to your attention, but 'getting caught' wasn't really my concern for sending this in... I just want to clarify that you don't mean to impede mentor-mentee relationships that are undertaken just to help new users get the experience to feel good about continuing to enjoy WiS and HD...  I'm not sure that I'm asking you to change or alter your guidelines (I can see how it might get muddy to include lots of things about mentors and the like) but just more or less want some piece of mind that what we were doing wasn't/isn't something WiS is opposed to... I believe that the spirit of the rules is to discourage and hopefully eliminate users taking an unfair advantage over other users through talking about these recruits, and I don't think what my mentee and I were doing violates any of that, just wanted to see if you agree. Thanks, dacj501
7/4/2012 11:54 AM	Customer Support
dacj501, In the case of recruiting, try to stick with generalizations and high level advice, but what you're describing is unlikely to cross the line. We obviously don't want to discourage mentoring of newer coaches in any way. We're not out to punish anyone, so it really comes down to common sense. The fair play guidelines were updated to give some examples of the types of actions that can cross the line, but there is always a gray area. If someone complains we'll use our best judgement to be fair based on the specific circumstances.
7/4/2012 2:36 PM	dacj501
thanks. That's what I thought, I just wanted to check with you folks.

So...are you trying the further the conversation about the ethics of co-coaching or the limits of mentoring???

Because that type of day-after-day-after-monther-after-whenever cooperation could sound like an unfair competitive advantage to some (or a lot of) people.

I found it in my ticket history looking for something else and it was sort of related, so I posted it. No real agenda, thought it might help for someone to see what CS had to say on the topic is all. 

I guess complain to CS if you've got problems with it, (as you can see, they don't). I'm not all that concerned personally about your particular thoughts tbh, although I'm not sure where in that whole thing it said anything about "day-after-day-after-monther-after-whenever" help - this was one recruiting period...

take the clearest case - an experienced coach in DI of a world gives advice game after game and recruiting step after recruiting step to a newbie in DIII of another world.  
a. example number one - the DIII coach is the 14 year old kid of the DI coach and he is introducing his son to a hobby

b. example number two - no connection at all between the two people

Assume, there is no transfer of FSS or other non public information except that the DI coach teaches the DIII coach a lot - experiences, ideas, things that he learned himself or in the forums.

I think there is nothing wrong with any of this.

Posted by fd343ny on 1/24/2016 11:04:00 AM (view original):
take the clearest case - an experienced coach in DI of a world gives advice game after game and recruiting step after recruiting step to a newbie in DIII of another world.  
a. example number one - the DIII coach is the 14 year old kid of the DI coach and he is introducing his son to a hobby

b. example number two - no connection at all between the two people

Assume, there is no transfer of FSS or other non public information except that the DI coach teaches the DIII coach a lot - experiences, ideas, things that he learned himself or in the forums.

I think there is nothing wrong with any of this.

Sure, collusion is an agreement between teams that results in advantages. Answering someone's questions and providing help to a new player has nothing to do with collusion.

Now, co-coaching could be problematic if people have other teams in that world. At an absolute minimum, all coaches need to follow the 1000 mile rule and not cheat with FSS. But if all coaches have no other teams in that world, then co-coaching is not collusion either.

Also, covering for someone on vacation, etc.. Is not collusion either.

Obviously, all 3 of those are my opinions.

one time, i was covering for my cousin in recruiting, he was on a trip out west, and completely by accident, i went for the same guy on his minnesota squad and my kentucky squad. i was ******! i still have no idea how its even possible, maybe because they are as far away as they are, i didn't even consider the possibility. sucked for me, i had to back down as myself and lose the guy even though i would have crushed him in the battle.

not going anywhere with that story... i always thought the biggest hazard of two teams in a world, was not fighting yourself, when sometimes you really would have (if you truly had controlled both teams independently). that used to be the conventional wisdom on the boards, too, i think - until the FSS stuff came up and people got all whipped up about that. just thought it was funny that apparently you can battle yourself when you have two teams.

i agree w/ hughes, co-coaching should have to abide the 1000 mile rule and all the other anti-collusion rules. mentoring, i don't really think a coach should be stopped from mentoring a guy a division down within a 1000 miles or something, but its probably worth being careful there. i have turned down a guy who wanted some help, who i was interested in helping, because we had d1 schools that were not that far away, because i would like to be available to answer a specific recruiting question if someone i'm helping has one, and i wasn't comfortable that his FSS info would be irrelevant to me. so had to say no. 

Posted by dacj501 on 1/24/2016 7:55:00 AM (view original):
I found it in my ticket history looking for something else and it was sort of related, so I posted it. No real agenda, thought it might help for someone to see what CS had to say on the topic is all. 

I guess complain to CS if you've got problems with it, (as you can see, they don't). I'm not all that concerned personally about your particular thoughts tbh, although I'm not sure where in that whole thing it said anything about "day-after-day-after-monther-after-whenever" help - this was one recruiting period...

fair enough...I was just honestly wondering if you were trying to tie this into the previous conversation, it just didn't 'seem' as general at first glance given its proximity to the other thread. Thanks for posting that.

Posted by nachopuzzle on 1/25/2016 12:22:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dacj501 on 1/24/2016 7:55:00 AM (view original):
I found it in my ticket history looking for something else and it was sort of related, so I posted it. No real agenda, thought it might help for someone to see what CS had to say on the topic is all. 

I guess complain to CS if you've got problems with it, (as you can see, they don't). I'm not all that concerned personally about your particular thoughts tbh, although I'm not sure where in that whole thing it said anything about "day-after-day-after-monther-after-whenever" help - this was one recruiting period...

fair enough...I was just honestly wondering if you were trying to tie this into the previous conversation, it just didn't 'seem' as general at first glance given its proximity to the other thread. Thanks for posting that.

no, honestly there was a bit of confusion as to what the line might be, I found this personal experience and hoped it might help someone out is all...

Posted by dacj501 on 1/25/2016 1:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 1/25/2016 12:22:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dacj501 on 1/24/2016 7:55:00 AM (view original):
I found it in my ticket history looking for something else and it was sort of related, so I posted it. No real agenda, thought it might help for someone to see what CS had to say on the topic is all. 

I guess complain to CS if you've got problems with it, (as you can see, they don't). I'm not all that concerned personally about your particular thoughts tbh, although I'm not sure where in that whole thing it said anything about "day-after-day-after-monther-after-whenever" help - this was one recruiting period...

fair enough...I was just honestly wondering if you were trying to tie this into the previous conversation, it just didn't 'seem' as general at first glance given its proximity to the other thread. Thanks for posting that.

no, honestly there was a bit of confusion as to what the line might be, I found this personal experience and hoped it might help someone out is all...

yeah, I definitely think it is a very insightful exchange with the admins for sure.

If a coach feels comfortable enough and experienced enough to move up to D1, then I believe the mentoring should stop then, even if it's their initial try at D1 recruiting.  Yes, I realize that the dynamics of D1 recruiting are quite different than at D2/D3 but at some point these coaches need to put on their big boy undies and venture out on their own.  Not confident enough to go it alone?  Probably not ready for D1 then.

For what it's worth, the whole co-coaching thing feels/seems a little cheesy in my book too.  You either have the time, money, and interest to coach a team or you don't.  Just my opinion of course.

Posted by emy1013 on 1/25/2016 4:26:00 AM (view original):
If a coach feels comfortable enough and experienced enough to move up to D1, then I believe the mentoring should stop then, even if it's their initial try at D1 recruiting.  Yes, I realize that the dynamics of D1 recruiting are quite different than at D2/D3 but at some point these coaches need to put on their big boy undies and venture out on their own.  Not confident enough to go it alone?  Probably not ready for D1 then.

For what it's worth, the whole co-coaching thing feels/seems a little cheesy in my book too.  You either have the time, money, and interest to coach a team or you don't.  Just my opinion of course.

i get that opinion, not unreasonable at all. the story i was told that really made me want to co-coach was about two guys who were waiting for their pbp on their co-coached team together, in real life, and got to read the pbp together, and then celebrate their title. definitely a very different experience than my championship games. the reason i would recommend co-coaching is because it is fun getting to experience the successes with someone else. i like talking HD with other coaches - obviously - and getting to talk about your own team with someone else who actually cares just as much, its pretty sweet. never got that any other way. the time thing is secondary, although for me, that is part of it - but that's not why i'd recommend it.