Posted by the0nlyis on 2/24/2016 11:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bhansalid00 on 2/24/2016 10:53:00 AM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 2/24/2016 10:14:00 AM (view original):
I'm not sure I can fully make the claim but I really did just have the most anti myers team possible in IBA. I made the NC game in Iba with 45 team ath and 36 team defense. My speed was 69 and my bh was 56 and 52.

Really nice job. Looking at your stats, I'm not surprised by your team's passing and lack of turnovers, or your opponents' TO's. What I was surprised by is that you held opponents to 42% FG / 31% 3PT on the season, while playing a top-notch schedule. I wouldn't have expected that with your mediocre DEF ratings. But I guess playing 6 seniors with great press IQs outweighs that.

In the press spd is most important imo, and it shows since it covered up a severe deficiency in "normal" defensive ratings. I only had 4 opponents shoot over 50%. I did give up over 40 fta 3 times(going 1-3), but I had over 40 FTA myself 11 times

Yeah, I'm learning that the hard way on my D2 press team. We're top 5 nationally in PER and STA, and have good ATH and IQs as well. But we're "only" around 20th in SPD. I've been ranked all season, but ultimately I'm not going to win 4-6 games in the NT with good-but-not-great SPD.

Posted by milwood on 2/24/2016 12:13:00 PM (view original):
The most anti Myers team would not play the press with 6 seniors and great IQs. You're team averaged over 23 turnovers/game! You still did an amazing job, don't get me wrong, but I think this team falls under the category the press is too strong at DIII. IMHO.

Great job and congrats on another amazing season!

Well I was talkingin terms of ath/def verse speed it was. unless we are talking about a traingle/zone teams with no ath all offense horrible IQ and 12 underclassmen.

The anti myers isn't about structure and IQ it's about the rating compositions of the ath/def focus compared to the spd focus.

Posted by the0nlyis on 2/24/2016 12:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by milwood on 2/24/2016 12:13:00 PM (view original):
The most anti Myers team would not play the press with 6 seniors and great IQs. You're team averaged over 23 turnovers/game! You still did an amazing job, don't get me wrong, but I think this team falls under the category the press is too strong at DIII. IMHO.

Great job and congrats on another amazing season!

Well I was talkingin terms of ath/def verse speed it was. unless we are talking about a traingle/zone teams with no ath all offense horrible IQ and 12 underclassmen.

The anti myers isn't about structure and IQ it's about the rating compositions of the ath/def focus compared to the spd focus.

Agreed, but there is also a reason he plays fcp/fb with all of his teams. I don't think his structure would be nearly as successful as running the triangle/zone, which makes it a large part of his winning structure. I would argue it is equally a part of the structure as are the components you mentioned.

I think your triangle zone example is going a little too far to the extreme and not at all what I meant, but true that would be as anti as you could get.

Posted by milwood on 2/24/2016 12:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 2/24/2016 12:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by milwood on 2/24/2016 12:13:00 PM (view original):
The most anti Myers team would not play the press with 6 seniors and great IQs. You're team averaged over 23 turnovers/game! You still did an amazing job, don't get me wrong, but I think this team falls under the category the press is too strong at DIII. IMHO.

Great job and congrats on another amazing season!

Well I was talkingin terms of ath/def verse speed it was. unless we are talking about a traingle/zone teams with no ath all offense horrible IQ and 12 underclassmen.

The anti myers isn't about structure and IQ it's about the rating compositions of the ath/def focus compared to the spd focus.

Agreed, but there is also a reason he plays fcp/fb with all of his teams. I don't think his structure would be nearly as successful as running the triangle/zone, which makes it a large part of his winning structure. I would argue it is equally a part of the structure as are the components you mentioned.

I think your triangle zone example is going a little too far to the extreme and not at all what I meant, but true that would be as anti as you could get.

what would you say the most realistic anti-myers teams then?

I think you're team makeup was about as anti Myers about as much as you can get. I would want to see a team be successful running man or zone to be all around anti Myers. My only point was most of his success is from ath, def, and ft, like you pointed out, but a portion is also from the sets he runs. IMHO press has too much advantage at DIII. So to be completely anti Myers I would want to see a team compete with a team built just like yours but running different sets.

thats not true. I don't really want to see that. All I want to see is for my team to be more competitive!

again great job this season!

Posted by milwood on 2/24/2016 1:03:00 PM (view original):
I think you're team makeup was about as anti Myers about as much as you can get. I would want to see a team be successful running man or zone to be all around anti Myers. My only point was most of his success is from ath, def, and ft, like you pointed out, but a portion is also from the sets he runs. IMHO press has too much advantage at DIII. So to be completely anti Myers I would want to see a team compete with a team built just like yours but running different sets.

thats not true. I don't really want to see that. All I want to see is for my team to be more competitive!

again great job this season!

I think it would be a bit harder considering speed is valued most in the press, I'm not sure which values it more man or press(I would assume zone requires the least spd). The only other option would be similar to myers just a different set, Becker in Knight by carlbuzz is a similar all ath/def but they run a flex/zone. Maybe you could do a triangle zone team where you recruit just all offense and get lucky with multiple perimeter and lp players all above 90+ to the point you can't be stopped in the triangle since it requires the least ath and needs the most "true" offense.

thanks :D having a great run for a team I hate recruiting for :D

IMO the anti meyers team is a traditional type team, that leads with offense and 3 point shooting, and is good season in and season out. i suppose not playing fb or pr might be part of it, but its really to me about reversing the strategy. he runs a fringe strategy based on extreme defense, sacrificing any ratings for it, but also runs a dangerous foul drawing offense. if you ran some extreme strategy in a different direction, seems like that would be more like him than running a balanced team. the antithesis of chaos is never chaos (not to say his strategy is chaos, just making a point).

Posted by bhansalid00 on 2/24/2016 12:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 2/24/2016 11:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bhansalid00 on 2/24/2016 10:53:00 AM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 2/24/2016 10:14:00 AM (view original):
I'm not sure I can fully make the claim but I really did just have the most anti myers team possible in IBA. I made the NC game in Iba with 45 team ath and 36 team defense. My speed was 69 and my bh was 56 and 52.

Really nice job. Looking at your stats, I'm not surprised by your team's passing and lack of turnovers, or your opponents' TO's. What I was surprised by is that you held opponents to 42% FG / 31% 3PT on the season, while playing a top-notch schedule. I wouldn't have expected that with your mediocre DEF ratings. But I guess playing 6 seniors with great press IQs outweighs that.

In the press spd is most important imo, and it shows since it covered up a severe deficiency in "normal" defensive ratings. I only had 4 opponents shoot over 50%. I did give up over 40 fta 3 times(going 1-3), but I had over 40 FTA myself 11 times

Yeah, I'm learning that the hard way on my D2 press team. We're top 5 nationally in PER and STA, and have good ATH and IQs as well. But we're "only" around 20th in SPD. I've been ranked all season, but ultimately I'm not going to win 4-6 games in the NT with good-but-not-great SPD.

overall ranking for speed is fairly meaningless in the press. its your speed at the 1-3 that really counts. i just want to advise a bit of caution - you guys are talking about speed in the press like it was in the old days, before seble's engine rewrite. back then, spd was most important both for fg defense and for turnover causing. one of my best d2 teams featured 6 90+ spd players at the 1-3, with mediocre (at best) ath/def, and we were completely unstoppable - our ath/def really didn't matter. but, the game does not work like that anymore.

today, speed is still most important for turnovers, but absolutely is not most important for fg defense. defense is the most important rating, in the press, for fg defense, most likely followed by ath, with speed a close 3rd. defense is particularly important for reducing the fouls you commit, which is less important if you are a 20th in the country type of team, who is only optimizing your average performance. but, it is exceedingly important when you are a #1 in the country type of team, who is trying to also reduce the chance of poor performances. you can have superb press defenders in d1, who have 95 ath/def and only 70 speed. but a 95 speed, 70 ath/def d1 press player is a significant liability to top teams. mid majors and stuff, sure, no problem - i do it myself - go heavy for speed, slack on ath/def - it works out in your favor because ath/def is so highly prized, you really can't get much of it anyway. in d2/d3, i think its also ok to have players slacking in ath/def for speed, if they are top notch scorers or a top notch pg. thats ok, but you should realize that in high end games, you really are giving up something meaningful on those players - if you get enough for it, thats fine, but it is important to know what you are losing.

generally speaking, just keep in mind that how the game works in general and how it works against top flight competition, are very different. quality offensive players can go to ****, same with solid defenders. just because only's stat line shows his team defending well against some level of competition, does not mean that would hold up in big time NT games - and in this case - it won't (on average, because of small sample size, it might). that overall stat line really does not say much about how the team will perform against a top few in the country type team. its true at all levels, and mostly, i just would recommend trying to be aware of the difference between playing a decent schedule and playing a top few team. the value your players have changes, and the way you should play your team changes, its just good to be aware of that, and when you (anybody) starts getting top tier teams, you should really try to pay attention to differences in performance against normal teams and against other top tier teams, so you can try to optimize not for your average opponent, but for your final 4 opponent. doing that well is a big part of how championships are won in bulk.

Yeah, I get that.
But my initial question to the0nlyis still stands. He played eight games against top-10 teams before his loss in the NC game. And his opponent FG% in those games was, for the most part, lower than I would expect it to be given his relative lack of ATH and DEF, and the pretty high quality of the offenses he was facing. He committed a lot of fouls in those games, but when he wasn't fouling or causing TO's, he caused more missed shots than I'd expect (both 2PT and 3PT).
So did he just get lucky in a small sample size? Or is the value of SPD in opp FG% in the press less than it used to be, but still more significant than I'm expecting?

im going with c) none of the above. maybe you slightly undervalue speed, if you think it is worth very little, but i do think its 3rd in terms of fg defense for guards, behind def and ath. maybe for 3s its def/spd/ath or something, but basically ath and spd are fairly close for pressing guards, in terms of defensive quality (for fg defense). so, if you were thinking it was a lot less than, that, then yes, thats an issue. but that would not explain the full gap.

in those games against top opponents, his fg and 3pt defense was significantly worse than on the season average - but still pretty good. however, if you look into the games, many of those opponents are playing pretty damn tired. being 12 deep with 82 sta, only took less of a fatigue hit. those lower fatigue levels are a substantial hit. so, he got a major advantage to fg% and 3pt% defense, by sheer virtue of defending tired opponents. if you factor in a few points on fg% and 3pt% because of that - on top of his actual stats against those opponents, not the team stat line - then you'd see pretty solid fg and 3pt numbers for his opponents.

To bring this up again I have another strong team with weak ath/def that will be intriguing to follow, same structure as as before, and a brutal non conf. Went Elite 8 as all jr/fr. 42 team ath and 35 team def right now, but 63 team spd 51 per 53 bh and 48 pas. Sta is good as well at 78 team sta.

I don't think this is another NC appearance team like the last 2 sr/so team's because I don't have any true offensive threat Florian and Manning are mid 80's per so I won't have my 90+ per offensive weapon.

Should be interesting to follow, and I can post my defensive stats after non conf so it doesn't look better because of the sim filled conference.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/19/2015 8:34:00 AM (view original):
Myers does it a little different clansing, I didn't mean any disrespect in my post, I really want to first hand play him and watch his teams develop.....also Myers is a really cool guy, these type of posts pop up every so often and when he does comment he is super respectful...the guy is  a class act...he's also beaten me a ton of times :)

I've done similar teams to his. My biggest take away is that he has built up enough money and has a high enough prestige that he usually gets exactly who he wants during recruiting. This is a big part of his success. The ability to recruit exactly who you want without little battle difficulty.

The biggest credit is in the continued success that he has. My CCNY team is built similar, with more time between the 27+ win seasons and lower FT shooting.

Dickinson beaten by -5 in the finals of Phelan. Living by free throws is tough when you shoot 59%.