Posted by cubcub113 on 3/28/2020 9:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 3/28/2020 8:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Sportsbulls on 3/28/2020 6:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 3/28/2020 4:32:00 PM (view original):
I've always wanted to see an all ST team with weak ratings elsewhere intentionally. Just ****** players with high ST.

Or vice versa..... a team of elite players with intentional low ST. I think this can be done fairly easily too. There are enough players that are great that have horrible ST. Also for those who don't know about THIS glitch, any player that starts with red ST, never gains any and consistently loses ST in the off season. So if you could find a good player with 72 red ST, he'd possibly get down in the high 50s Sr season.

Another idea which is by FAR the most intriguing to me, is an all-turtle team. Run a C with single digit speed (which is normal in some cases), a PF in the teens (that's really slow there), a SF in the 30s in 40s, and your guards could be like 80 ath 60 spd players with ball skills. The reason I'm intrigued by this, is because I feel SPD is one of the most important ratings in all of HD, but the most difficult to understand where it hurts you in the box scores without it. I would assume it affects the overall defense of your team, steals, defensive shooting percentages. And on offense, it would obliterate your shooting percentages. But I've never done it to find out.

(These rating estimates are for D2)

Here’s an example of what speed can do (I've been talking about this team a lot on the forums, apologize!):

My Lincoln team has a 64 team defense average (not top 25 for Phelan D2) and we lead the country in TOs because we have elite guard speed.

I think speed and TOs correlate a ton, especially in press.

Speed certainly correlated to TOs in the press. I would argue it is as important defensively as ATH.

cub is saying it’s more important in offense than people think; particularly when you have a massive advantage which is easier to do in the post positions. I think he is right.

BillyG used to argue something similar, I think his point was something like speed in posts turns the average scorers into elite scorers. The 100/100 ath lp guy in D1 is only average but that guy with 60 speed ( as opposed to 30) is way more efficient.

Yeah I 100% agree with that. It's not like a 100 ath/ 75 lp 4 with 65 speed will suddenly be a stud, but if you have that 90+ LP the 65 speed is devstating.

6.8.0

So you think it’s speed, or just speed? Or do you need some perimeter as well?

I guess to ask another way, what are your high speed guys perimeter scores?

Posted by topdogggbm on 3/28/2020 4:32:00 PM (view original):
I've always wanted to see an all ST team with weak ratings elsewhere intentionally. Just ****** players with high ST.

Or vice versa..... a team of elite players with intentional low ST. I think this can be done fairly easily too. There are enough players that are great that have horrible ST. Also for those who don't know about THIS glitch, any player that starts with red ST, never gains any and consistently loses ST in the off season. So if you could find a good player with 72 red ST, he'd possibly get down in the high 50s Sr season.

Another idea which is by FAR the most intriguing to me, is an all-turtle team. Run a C with single digit speed (which is normal in some cases), a PF in the teens (that's really slow there), a SF in the 30s in 40s, and your guards could be like 80 ath 60 spd players with ball skills. The reason I'm intrigued by this, is because I feel SPD is one of the most important ratings in all of HD, but the most difficult to understand where it hurts you in the box scores without it. I would assume it affects the overall defense of your team, steals, defensive shooting percentages. And on offense, it would obliterate your shooting percentages. But I've never done it to find out.

(These rating estimates are for D2)

i thought that red sta thing was fixed years ago, im pretty sure its fixed now?

Posted by gillispie1 on 3/29/2020 11:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 3/28/2020 4:32:00 PM (view original):
I've always wanted to see an all ST team with weak ratings elsewhere intentionally. Just ****** players with high ST.

Or vice versa..... a team of elite players with intentional low ST. I think this can be done fairly easily too. There are enough players that are great that have horrible ST. Also for those who don't know about THIS glitch, any player that starts with red ST, never gains any and consistently loses ST in the off season. So if you could find a good player with 72 red ST, he'd possibly get down in the high 50s Sr season.

Another idea which is by FAR the most intriguing to me, is an all-turtle team. Run a C with single digit speed (which is normal in some cases), a PF in the teens (that's really slow there), a SF in the 30s in 40s, and your guards could be like 80 ath 60 spd players with ball skills. The reason I'm intrigued by this, is because I feel SPD is one of the most important ratings in all of HD, but the most difficult to understand where it hurts you in the box scores without it. I would assume it affects the overall defense of your team, steals, defensive shooting percentages. And on offense, it would obliterate your shooting percentages. But I've never done it to find out.

(These rating estimates are for D2)

i thought that red sta thing was fixed years ago, im pretty sure its fixed now?

Its been fixed and is rusty. The only thing new is that every1 can recruit at any level.

Ok so how about this - Maybe I start a DII Smith team who runs slowdown Triangle Zone, plays brutally tough defense (80 or 90+ for every player) and serious rebounding skill (40 to 50+ for guards, 90+ for everyone else) and mostly ignore all other categories. Making games as ugly and brutal as humanly possible. That could be fun.

Oh, and make sure my up coming WVU fastbreak /combo team has high spd/sta/def at every position, but also maybe make sure all FT ratings are B- or higher. - and play positionless - everyone can run, we might not have 2 post players.

Those could be two kind of unique team models.

Posted by gillispie1 on 3/29/2020 11:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 3/28/2020 4:32:00 PM (view original):
I've always wanted to see an all ST team with weak ratings elsewhere intentionally. Just ****** players with high ST.

Or vice versa..... a team of elite players with intentional low ST. I think this can be done fairly easily too. There are enough players that are great that have horrible ST. Also for those who don't know about THIS glitch, any player that starts with red ST, never gains any and consistently loses ST in the off season. So if you could find a good player with 72 red ST, he'd possibly get down in the high 50s Sr season.

Another idea which is by FAR the most intriguing to me, is an all-turtle team. Run a C with single digit speed (which is normal in some cases), a PF in the teens (that's really slow there), a SF in the 30s in 40s, and your guards could be like 80 ath 60 spd players with ball skills. The reason I'm intrigued by this, is because I feel SPD is one of the most important ratings in all of HD, but the most difficult to understand where it hurts you in the box scores without it. I would assume it affects the overall defense of your team, steals, defensive shooting percentages. And on offense, it would obliterate your shooting percentages. But I've never done it to find out.

(These rating estimates are for D2)

i thought that red sta thing was fixed years ago, im pretty sure its fixed now?

I'm 90% sure it's not fixed. I'll look, I think I have a guy. But I have a player from less than 10 seasons ago that I'm sure of. I'll check on how many seasons ago, and share his numbers

Add in.... here we go. This guy is current. He's a red ST casualty.....

https://imgur.com/a/44gW2pI

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/RatingsHistory.aspx?pid=4353677

he started red and gained. but the bug was really always worst for guys who started max, not just red... so maybe this guy doesn't 100% prove it fixed for all cases. really i think the bug was a general issue where as the rate of growth slowed, it could never increase again - so when you lost points in the off season, your rate didnt go back up. its only really sta which loses consistently enough to show the issue.

im not sure your guy proves anything, maybe he just didnt have that much cond or playing time and it wasnt enough to gain 1 point being yellow (it helps if you can link to the player so he can be looked at robustly). plus its just 1 year, you are only showing a soph there for some reason.

i think our guy pretty much proves it has been fixed - he starts red, then gains +2 his senior year. no way you gain 2 on the rate of improvement a guy has, when hes in red. our guy had barely dropped to black, and his growth rating got reset, making it possible to grow 2 in a single season.

also im virtually positive seble said he fixed it

Posted by Trentonjoe on 3/29/2020 11:04:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 3/28/2020 9:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 3/28/2020 8:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Sportsbulls on 3/28/2020 6:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 3/28/2020 4:32:00 PM (view original):
I've always wanted to see an all ST team with weak ratings elsewhere intentionally. Just ****** players with high ST.

Or vice versa..... a team of elite players with intentional low ST. I think this can be done fairly easily too. There are enough players that are great that have horrible ST. Also for those who don't know about THIS glitch, any player that starts with red ST, never gains any and consistently loses ST in the off season. So if you could find a good player with 72 red ST, he'd possibly get down in the high 50s Sr season.

Another idea which is by FAR the most intriguing to me, is an all-turtle team. Run a C with single digit speed (which is normal in some cases), a PF in the teens (that's really slow there), a SF in the 30s in 40s, and your guards could be like 80 ath 60 spd players with ball skills. The reason I'm intrigued by this, is because I feel SPD is one of the most important ratings in all of HD, but the most difficult to understand where it hurts you in the box scores without it. I would assume it affects the overall defense of your team, steals, defensive shooting percentages. And on offense, it would obliterate your shooting percentages. But I've never done it to find out.

(These rating estimates are for D2)

Here’s an example of what speed can do (I've been talking about this team a lot on the forums, apologize!):

My Lincoln team has a 64 team defense average (not top 25 for Phelan D2) and we lead the country in TOs because we have elite guard speed.

I think speed and TOs correlate a ton, especially in press.

Speed certainly correlated to TOs in the press. I would argue it is as important defensively as ATH.

cub is saying it’s more important in offense than people think; particularly when you have a massive advantage which is easier to do in the post positions. I think he is right.

BillyG used to argue something similar, I think his point was something like speed in posts turns the average scorers into elite scorers. The 100/100 ath lp guy in D1 is only average but that guy with 60 speed ( as opposed to 30) is way more efficient.

Yeah I 100% agree with that. It's not like a 100 ath/ 75 lp 4 with 65 speed will suddenly be a stud, but if you have that 90+ LP the 65 speed is devstating.

6.8.0

So you think it’s speed, or just speed? Or do you need some perimeter as well?

I guess to ask another way, what are your high speed guys perimeter scores?

If I had a guy with 95 ATH/ 95 LP I'd pick 75 speed and 40 per over 40 speed and 75 PER for scoring, although its super close IMO. I'd definitely take 60 speed over 60 per.

Here's a 40 SP, 60 LP flop (although only 88 ath/92 lp/31 bh/then 84 sta--so not a truly elite high DI scorer).


I'm going to recruit this PF who projects to 100 ath, 90 speed, and 90 lp in Wooden this year just because I think well be able to learn a lot about the sim engine from it (and because I think he can win me a title) I'm going to pretty much make sure I get him by doing that bullshit method I talked about in another thread. But anyways I'll get back to you guys soon.

Here's the guy I hope to sign at play at the 4:

98 ath
86 sp
99 reb
100 de
77 sb
91 lp
44 per
64 bh
50 pa
81 sta

I have a feeling he will be able to score 25 with good efficiency but I am not 100% sure. He might just be a "normal" stud and score 16-18 with good efficiency.

I would give my left nut, I mean I have had a vasectomy so it isn’t really worth that much to me, to know the scoring equation.

At this point in my career here I think the equation is similar to the baseball equation in the sense there are many opposed “checks” were being an extreme ( 86 speed vs 40 speed in the post) is valuable. Especially at high D1 where the cores are all more or less equal.

to say another way, because that isn’t really clear because I am still working through this, raw speed rating isn’t really as important as the difference between the speed in the offensive and defensive player.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 3/29/2020 4:51:00 PM (view original):
I would give my left nut, I mean I have had a vasectomy so it isn’t really worth that much to me, to know the scoring equation.

At this point in my career here I think the equation is similar to the baseball equation in the sense there are many opposed “checks” were being an extreme ( 86 speed vs 40 speed in the post) is valuable. Especially at high D1 where the cores are all more or less equal.

to say another way, because that isn’t really clear because I am still working through this, raw speed rating isn’t really as important as the difference between the speed in the offensive and defensive player.

Oh yeah, I agree its the raw speed difference that is serious. And I agree if it's around 35 its more than twice as important as if its 18 points.

Posted by gillispie1 on 3/29/2020 4:18:00 PM (view original):
https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/RatingsHistory.aspx?pid=4353677

he started red and gained. but the bug was really always worst for guys who started max, not just red... so maybe this guy doesn't 100% prove it fixed for all cases. really i think the bug was a general issue where as the rate of growth slowed, it could never increase again - so when you lost points in the off season, your rate didnt go back up. its only really sta which loses consistently enough to show the issue.

im not sure your guy proves anything, maybe he just didnt have that much cond or playing time and it wasnt enough to gain 1 point being yellow (it helps if you can link to the player so he can be looked at robustly). plus its just 1 year, you are only showing a soph there for some reason.

i think our guy pretty much proves it has been fixed - he starts red, then gains +2 his senior year. no way you gain 2 on the rate of improvement a guy has, when hes in red. our guy had barely dropped to black, and his growth rating got reset, making it possible to grow 2 in a single season.

also im virtually positive seble said he fixed it

I only showed Soph season cuz I said he's still current! He's only a Soph now. But he started red, lost points in the off season, and isn't gaining back. But here's another one for you to see a full career......

https://imgur.com/a/EGfN73t

This guy did gain 1 point Sr year. But the point is, he dropped continuously. And if you look at his growth in ATH, it's very clear that I was pumping tons of practice minutes into conditioning. He had a lot of growth to be had. He was from about 12 season's ago in Crum so I don't know when you suppose this change went into effect. So I don't know if he qualifies