Press Strategies Topic

I am in the middle of my second season running Press D and Motion O in D3. Through other forum posts and getting great advice through direct messaging, I have a decent idea of the players to target to run press (at least I think so) but had a couple questions:

-Should I be running a 12 man rotation or can I get away with 11 by redshirting a guy each year or having a walk on?

-If I am running an 11 man rotation does 5 bigs/6 guards+SF or 4/7 or something completely different make more sense? Or is that question completely team by team basis? Not sure if there are generally accepted strategies to follow there.

-Is it natural to run fastbreak with press? Theoretically a good press player fits with fastbreak O? Or does O/D combo not really matter? I run Motion right now mostly because that is the offense I inherited when I took over the team.

Any input would be appreciated - link to current roster:
https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=5759
6/14/2020 1:04 PM
You can run 11 if you have players with good stamina. I play Fastbreak and Full court press a lot. For that stamina is really important. If you have bad stamina, you can start to foul a lot from fatigue.
6/14/2020 9:43 PM
You can certainly run 11 on normal with no qualms. If you want to uptempo with 11 having really good stamina is probably a good plan, and mybe you should even have an autoadjusttempo option on?

I think 4 and 7 with one of your 7 guards/wings having 50 reb is a good idea. I've been following this interesting uptempo press team with 9 guards and 3 bigs in Tark DIII, and this (new) coach has decided to give Waters and Hoover a lot of minutes at the 4 instead of running his bigs into the ground, which is prpbably the better idea. 15 mpg with 50 reb at the 4 will not kill you.

Press fits best with FB/flex/motion. It's most often run with FB but motion/flex are fine too.

Also... damn! Tall and Thompson are two insanely good sim guys for DIII...
7.0.3
6/15/2020 5:05 PM
Posted by cubcub113 on 6/15/2020 5:05:00 PM (view original):
You can certainly run 11 on normal with no qualms. If you want to uptempo with 11 having really good stamina is probably a good plan, and mybe you should even have an autoadjusttempo option on?

I think 4 and 7 with one of your 7 guards/wings having 50 reb is a good idea. I've been following this interesting uptempo press team with 9 guards and 3 bigs in Tark DIII, and this (new) coach has decided to give Waters and Hoover a lot of minutes at the 4 instead of running his bigs into the ground, which is prpbably the better idea. 15 mpg with 50 reb at the 4 will not kill you.

Press fits best with FB/flex/motion. It's most often run with FB but motion/flex are fine too.

Also... damn! Tall and Thompson are two insanely good sim guys for DIII...
7.0.3
press really fits perfectly well with triangle too, my confidence in this is decently diminished but i believe the two best runs in lower division history were both triangle/press.

to the OP - 10 is enough, assuming its not fb/fcp, because you can run slowdown when need be. i have always felt that 12 deep is a significant advantage over 10 deep, but that is really from a volatility-focused standpoint, like for a big title favorite. for most teams, 10 is not much worse than 12, if you have the right 10. right 10 meaning an even 10 man rotation, solid stamina, solid foul trouble avoidance (ath/def/iq). i would basically not hesitate to redshirt.

cub - the idea that uptempo press is a thing people should try to build is generally speaking a fantasy. there are perhaps press teams where uptempo isn't unambiguously bad, but they are actually the lower caliber teams. at the high end of press play, with volatility as enemy #1, the foul/fatigue spiral risk is one of your biggest drivers of loss. even when i had the most dominant program in history of the game, i did not even run uptempo in the NT once. well, maybe against a sim in round 1 or something, but most definitely not outside of that.

OP, if you do go fb/fcp, stamina becomes a core for every player, and 12 deep really is your goal. you can do 11 but without great stamina and great foul avoidance, you are going to feel significant pain. fb/fcp is a significantly higher tempo scheme than fcp alone. you also lose the slowdown which REALLY makes your down years harder. i would not recommend fb/fcp to someone trying to learn the press. its like a whole different scheme. fb is so different than the 3 main offenses, fb/fcp is really its own whole scheme with its own set of guidelines and probably not the right starting point for anybody! also, press relies so heavily on your guards, if you were to run 11, 4 bigs + 7 from 1-3 is ideal. the press defense is the single most powerful force in this game, its just harder to build up than other defenses, and it extremely heavily relies on guards - who are also the best scorers in this game - so you really are much better off focusing on the 1-3 players and skimping at the 4-5 than the reverse.
6/15/2020 6:03 PM
Triangle is clearly the worst to pair with press. Not that you can't win with it, of course you can. (At least at lower levels....) Triangle is forgiving if you aren't a team/player with really high ATH/SPD team. And press NEEDS the ATH/SPD. So it's just not a "great" pairing.

Assuming we can't all sign 12 studs every season, if you take a player that's 50/50 ATH/SPD but has 80/80 ball skills and just say 70 PER (a mediocre number), his talent doesn't translate "as well" to the needs of your press. But that's a solid offensive player for triangle.
6/15/2020 8:52 PM
Posted by topdogggbm on 6/15/2020 8:52:00 PM (view original):
Triangle is clearly the worst to pair with press. Not that you can't win with it, of course you can. (At least at lower levels....) Triangle is forgiving if you aren't a team/player with really high ATH/SPD team. And press NEEDS the ATH/SPD. So it's just not a "great" pairing.

Assuming we can't all sign 12 studs every season, if you take a player that's 50/50 ATH/SPD but has 80/80 ball skills and just say 70 PER (a mediocre number), his talent doesn't translate "as well" to the needs of your press. But that's a solid offensive player for triangle.
as much as i like to talk about the differences in the sets, the reality is the main 3 offenses are not really much different. i generally don't think changing between the 3 offenses is very justifiable without getting into personal preferences. its just not a big enough difference. i do find flex per scoring to rely more on speed, motion more on bh, and triangle more on per, which perhaps favors your conclusion. but these are small differences, and high spd/per/bh players are often hard to find in d2/d3. being able to find a guy with higher per + 1/2 of the others, and that being a little more forgiving, is a perfectly valid strength with which to offset the others - especially given the relatively high availability of green per in d2/d3 compared to higher ath/spd.

even though i used to harp on these differences more, i've always held the opinion that the most important thing was tailoring your approach to the set you are playing. outside of the press and its dominance at the highest levels of play, there aren't really good and bad set pairs as much as there are right and wrong ways to play them.

edit: 100% tongue in cheek - but when your best program is half as good as my worst triangle/press program (i've only had the one), i'll re-consider :)
6/15/2020 9:16 PM (edited)
Appreciate the feedback everyone..good info.

And the point on Tall and Johnson (for anyone who looked at my current roster)..definitely got super lucky in picking this team with those two as SIM recruits.
6/15/2020 9:43 PM
Posted by RollerBU on 6/15/2020 9:43:00 PM (view original):
Appreciate the feedback everyone..good info.

And the point on Tall and Johnson (for anyone who looked at my current roster)..definitely got super lucky in picking this team with those two as SIM recruits.
wow man that is awesome. i've tried most of a d2 season now, am curious what its like, and i don't think the guys i recruited are even that good :)
6/15/2020 10:12 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 6/15/2020 9:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topdogggbm on 6/15/2020 8:52:00 PM (view original):
Triangle is clearly the worst to pair with press. Not that you can't win with it, of course you can. (At least at lower levels....) Triangle is forgiving if you aren't a team/player with really high ATH/SPD team. And press NEEDS the ATH/SPD. So it's just not a "great" pairing.

Assuming we can't all sign 12 studs every season, if you take a player that's 50/50 ATH/SPD but has 80/80 ball skills and just say 70 PER (a mediocre number), his talent doesn't translate "as well" to the needs of your press. But that's a solid offensive player for triangle.
as much as i like to talk about the differences in the sets, the reality is the main 3 offenses are not really much different. i generally don't think changing between the 3 offenses is very justifiable without getting into personal preferences. its just not a big enough difference. i do find flex per scoring to rely more on speed, motion more on bh, and triangle more on per, which perhaps favors your conclusion. but these are small differences, and high spd/per/bh players are often hard to find in d2/d3. being able to find a guy with higher per + 1/2 of the others, and that being a little more forgiving, is a perfectly valid strength with which to offset the others - especially given the relatively high availability of green per in d2/d3 compared to higher ath/spd.

even though i used to harp on these differences more, i've always held the opinion that the most important thing was tailoring your approach to the set you are playing. outside of the press and its dominance at the highest levels of play, there aren't really good and bad set pairs as much as there are right and wrong ways to play them.

edit: 100% tongue in cheek - but when your best program is half as good as my worst triangle/press program (i've only had the one), i'll re-consider :)
Boy please. We can all claim to be good if we're sitting on the sidelines just watching! I heard you could beat Jordan 1 on 1 in your hey day too right? Haha

But to add a little, I agree that generally speaking you can have success with triangle press and/or any set pairing. There just has to be a best and a worst based off the game design. I also think if you can win with triangle press, it's more impressive than flex press or fastbreak press. Which is what most people use.
6/16/2020 5:29 AM (edited)
Posted by topdogggbm on 6/16/2020 5:29:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 6/15/2020 9:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topdogggbm on 6/15/2020 8:52:00 PM (view original):
Triangle is clearly the worst to pair with press. Not that you can't win with it, of course you can. (At least at lower levels....) Triangle is forgiving if you aren't a team/player with really high ATH/SPD team. And press NEEDS the ATH/SPD. So it's just not a "great" pairing.

Assuming we can't all sign 12 studs every season, if you take a player that's 50/50 ATH/SPD but has 80/80 ball skills and just say 70 PER (a mediocre number), his talent doesn't translate "as well" to the needs of your press. But that's a solid offensive player for triangle.
as much as i like to talk about the differences in the sets, the reality is the main 3 offenses are not really much different. i generally don't think changing between the 3 offenses is very justifiable without getting into personal preferences. its just not a big enough difference. i do find flex per scoring to rely more on speed, motion more on bh, and triangle more on per, which perhaps favors your conclusion. but these are small differences, and high spd/per/bh players are often hard to find in d2/d3. being able to find a guy with higher per + 1/2 of the others, and that being a little more forgiving, is a perfectly valid strength with which to offset the others - especially given the relatively high availability of green per in d2/d3 compared to higher ath/spd.

even though i used to harp on these differences more, i've always held the opinion that the most important thing was tailoring your approach to the set you are playing. outside of the press and its dominance at the highest levels of play, there aren't really good and bad set pairs as much as there are right and wrong ways to play them.

edit: 100% tongue in cheek - but when your best program is half as good as my worst triangle/press program (i've only had the one), i'll re-consider :)
Boy please. We can all claim to be good if we're sitting on the sidelines just watching! I heard you could beat Jordan 1 on 1 in your hey day too right? Haha

But to add a little, I agree that generally speaking you can have success with triangle press and/or any set pairing. There just has to be a best and a worst based off the game design. I also think if you can win with triangle press, it's more impressive than flex press or fastbreak press. Which is what most people use.
this is where you are taking it too far 'if you can win with triangle press, its more impressive that flex press or fb press'. if there is one thing over-represented in high end HD play prior to 3.0, its got to be motion/press. that **** was everywhere. motion/man too i guess. everyone loves motion i suppose. especially compared to fb/fcp, which is is significantly under represented in high level d1 play and always has been (same goes for the record books). its been catching on but that is a newer phenomenon, fb/fcp was really rare and considered almost a gimmick for most of HD history. and again, i'm pretty sure the top 2 programs in lower division history were both triangle press. while i agree there are some differences, taking it to the point where you are discounting one over another... its just an extreme view. if anything, if we had the data, it would suggest the opposite of what you are suggesting - which IMO suggests your personal preferences are getting in the way of reality. i personally do not discount any press scheme compared to any other, they are all great (my anecdotal experience, as the holder of perhaps 4 of the top 10 runs in HD history - 3 were with motion/press, 1 was triangle/press).

there is a reason to think an incredible zone run is more impressive than an incredible press run, so its not like the whole concept is based on nothing. you are just taking it too far - way too far. these slight differences between the big 3 offensive sets make them a factor with a hundred peers, its just crazy to discount on something like that.
6/17/2020 12:03 PM
“the idea that uptempo press is a thing people should try to build is generally speaking a fantasy. there are perhaps press teams where uptempo isn't unambiguously bad, but they are actually the lower caliber teams. at the high end of press play, with volatility as enemy #1, the foul/fatigue spiral risk is one of your biggest drivers of loss. even when i had the most dominant program in history of the game, i did not even run uptempo in the NT once. well, maybe against a sim in round 1 or something, but most definitely not outside of that.”

At D1, I have no quibble with this statement, because it’s very hard to consistently run out 12 players good enough to be the kind of team that really benefits from maximizing possessions at the D1 level. At D2/D3, it’s absolutely not a fantasy to build that kind of team, even (especially, I would say) FB/FCP. There are qualifiers, of course. As you say below, stamina is a core for everyone in this approach. At D2, I wanted to have my 8 core players at high 70s at least, and averaging mid-80s. And the last 4 all at least mid 70s. There isn’t much room to carry guys who have a lot to grow, like the guys with blue stamina in the low 60s, I was very reluctant to take them. Definitely not more than one in a class. Defense was a similar priority, to avoid gratuitous fouls. Since defense is a little more highly valued in general, I was looking at low 60s as the bottom benchmark, and average of mid-70s as ideal. So I would shoot for a team stamina no lower than 80, team defense no lower than 70 (at D2). If I had that, and if my core 8 averaged mid 80s stamina and mid70s defense, I had no concerns at all about the foul/fatigue cascade. So then my approach was simply push as hard as possible, to reduce volatility by sheer number of possessions.

“OP, if you do go fb/fcp, stamina becomes a core for every player, and 12 deep really is your goal. you can do 11 but without great stamina and great foul avoidance, you are going to feel significant pain. fb/fcp is a significantly higher tempo scheme than fcp alone. you also lose the slowdown which REALLY makes your down years harder. i would not recommend fb/fcp to someone trying to learn the press. its like a whole different scheme. fb is so different than the 3 main offenses, fb/fcp is really its own whole scheme with its own set of guidelines and probably not the right starting point for anybody! also, press relies so heavily on your guards, if you were to run 11, 4 bigs + 7 from 1-3 is ideal. the press defense is the single most powerful force in this game, its just harder to build up than other defenses, and it extremely heavily relies on guards - who are also the best scorers in this game - so you really are much better off focusing on the 1-3 players and skimping at the 4-5 than the reverse.”

I mostly agree. I think FB is more closely related to motion in some respects, favoring balanced distribution and relying more on physical cores than skill cores for scoring, just to a more extreme degree than motion. But it is noticeably different from flex and triangle, I think.

I preferred to shoot for 5 bigs and 7 guards. I never redshirted, and tried to avoid ineligibles and walkons whenever possible - and on those seasons when it was not possible, I certainly did not utilize uptempo except against the weakest opponents. I also valued flexibility in this scheme - I wanted most my bench players to cover multiple positions. This was kind of my ideal structure:
PG - Distributor1, Distributor2, scoringG4, scoringG5
SG - scoringG1, scoringG3, scoringG4, scoringG5
SF - scoringG2, scoringG3, scoringG4, scoringG5
PF - athletic/rebound1, A/R3, A/R4, A/R5
C - A/R2, A/R3, A/R4, A/R5
6/17/2020 2:51 PM (edited)
Posted by gillispie1 on 6/17/2020 12:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topdogggbm on 6/16/2020 5:29:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 6/15/2020 9:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topdogggbm on 6/15/2020 8:52:00 PM (view original):
Triangle is clearly the worst to pair with press. Not that you can't win with it, of course you can. (At least at lower levels....) Triangle is forgiving if you aren't a team/player with really high ATH/SPD team. And press NEEDS the ATH/SPD. So it's just not a "great" pairing.

Assuming we can't all sign 12 studs every season, if you take a player that's 50/50 ATH/SPD but has 80/80 ball skills and just say 70 PER (a mediocre number), his talent doesn't translate "as well" to the needs of your press. But that's a solid offensive player for triangle.
as much as i like to talk about the differences in the sets, the reality is the main 3 offenses are not really much different. i generally don't think changing between the 3 offenses is very justifiable without getting into personal preferences. its just not a big enough difference. i do find flex per scoring to rely more on speed, motion more on bh, and triangle more on per, which perhaps favors your conclusion. but these are small differences, and high spd/per/bh players are often hard to find in d2/d3. being able to find a guy with higher per + 1/2 of the others, and that being a little more forgiving, is a perfectly valid strength with which to offset the others - especially given the relatively high availability of green per in d2/d3 compared to higher ath/spd.

even though i used to harp on these differences more, i've always held the opinion that the most important thing was tailoring your approach to the set you are playing. outside of the press and its dominance at the highest levels of play, there aren't really good and bad set pairs as much as there are right and wrong ways to play them.

edit: 100% tongue in cheek - but when your best program is half as good as my worst triangle/press program (i've only had the one), i'll re-consider :)
Boy please. We can all claim to be good if we're sitting on the sidelines just watching! I heard you could beat Jordan 1 on 1 in your hey day too right? Haha

But to add a little, I agree that generally speaking you can have success with triangle press and/or any set pairing. There just has to be a best and a worst based off the game design. I also think if you can win with triangle press, it's more impressive than flex press or fastbreak press. Which is what most people use.
this is where you are taking it too far 'if you can win with triangle press, its more impressive that flex press or fb press'. if there is one thing over-represented in high end HD play prior to 3.0, its got to be motion/press. that **** was everywhere. motion/man too i guess. everyone loves motion i suppose. especially compared to fb/fcp, which is is significantly under represented in high level d1 play and always has been (same goes for the record books). its been catching on but that is a newer phenomenon, fb/fcp was really rare and considered almost a gimmick for most of HD history. and again, i'm pretty sure the top 2 programs in lower division history were both triangle press. while i agree there are some differences, taking it to the point where you are discounting one over another... its just an extreme view. if anything, if we had the data, it would suggest the opposite of what you are suggesting - which IMO suggests your personal preferences are getting in the way of reality. i personally do not discount any press scheme compared to any other, they are all great (my anecdotal experience, as the holder of perhaps 4 of the top 10 runs in HD history - 3 were with motion/press, 1 was triangle/press).

there is a reason to think an incredible zone run is more impressive than an incredible press run, so its not like the whole concept is based on nothing. you are just taking it too far - way too far. these slight differences between the big 3 offensive sets make them a factor with a hundred peers, its just crazy to discount on something like that.
I'm not sure why you are saying "personal preference". I LOVE TRIANGLE. I do not prefer motion. It's my least favorite offense. I'm basing my opinions off of what I said. The breakdown..... if I recruit a 80/80 ath/spd guy with 0 PER, that is a huge plus for press. That is a huge plus for fastbreak. If I'm running that combo I got a player that excels on offense and defense

That same player if I run press, huge benefit. If I run triangle, he's not even close to as helpful offensively. I will share a good example after I type all this.

I don't have alot of time at the moment, but why do you keep referring to "the two best teams ever were triangle press"? For one, HD is still currently playing. Look around you! It didn't end when you stopped playing. There's plenty of examples to look at. The best triangle press team I can think of off the top of my head is robinhood410 at N.Bama in D2 Crum heartland. Excellent team. But you don't see a lot of high caliber triangle press teams at all (there may be a lot more, i just can't think of a lot of examples, because you just don't see a lot of them succeeding). That's because it's more difficult to run because of the examples I stated earlier.

add on.... THIS is the player that comes to mind every time I discuss this. Now granted, this team was triangle/M2M and not press, but here's the point..... He CLEARLY would've dominated defensively on a press team. But look at his offensive output. Under 10ppg and under 50%. Sure his ppg could go up if forced more, but that percentage will come down if you do so, and then he's not as efficient. If we put him in "any set except triangle"/press, he's going to dominate! NPOY type of numbers!

https://imgur.com/a/ZOT1VPV

If you wanna argue that you wouldn't recruit him for triangle because of low PER/LP, who wouldn't sign a 90/90/90/90 guy every chance they get at D2?
6/18/2020 4:37 AM (edited)
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