How much strategy is really being lost with the universal DH?

I've spent a lot of today arguing with friends, but they don't seem to comprehend (or want to) my opinion that nothing is really lost with pitchers now losing their opportunity to hit.

The arguments I've seen a lot so far is that it takes away strategy.

I don't see much strategy taking place as 100% of managers would PH for their pitcher almost 100% of the time anytime they are down late in the ballgame.

In all of 2019, there were just TWO plate appearances by pitchers with the tying run on base in the 7th inning or later. One by Zack Wheeler on May 31st, and one by Jose Urena on May 27th. Both were in the 7th inning, and both attempted a sac bunt.

There was just one such plate appearance in 2018, by James Shields, who also bunted a runner over to 2nd in the 7th inning (this time there was 1 out).

In fact, you have to go back to 2016 for the last time a pitcher swung away in such a situation. That was Madison Bumgarner, who promptly grounded out to SS to end the inning with a runner on 2nd. The Giants lost 1-0.

And! you have to go back all the way to May 21st, 2012 for the last time a pitcher got a hit with the tying run on in the 7th inning or later. Jaime Garcia (who ended the night batting .273), hit an infield single with a runner on 1st, before eventually scoring in, what was at the time, a 1-0 ballgame. That PA was also in the 7th. The Cardinals won 4-3.

Going as far back as 2008, there has been exactly 1 pitcher PA in the 8th inning or later with the tying or go ahead run at the plate. That was Johnny Cueto sac bunting in the 8th in 2011.

To me, strategy insinuates differentiating from the norm for a certain advantage. If the same decision is made 99.9% of the time, how is that strategy? I believe NL mangers just adhere to 150 years of tradition, that these decisions were already made for them, and that there's no real 'strategy' being lost with the NL adopting the DH.


Zack Wheeler did hit a go ahead single with the bases loaded in a tie ballgame on Sept. 26th though, one of 3 pitcher PAs in 2019 in tie ballgames late in the game, so I guess that's the strategy everyone's talking about, but I digress.

this is why you rock

but still

two way football is long gone but two way baseball can happen



demand it!

BAN THE DH IN BOTH LEAGUES!!

THIS AINT BEER LEAGUE SOFTBALL!

WHAT'S NEXT ? A SHORT CENTER FIELDER?

HIGH ARC PITCHERS TO SAVE ARMS?

there was a lot more strategy involved when pitchers regularly threw complete games and there weren't so many dominant relievers. when pinch-hitting for the pitcher meant a likely downgrade in the caliber of the pitcher going forward, then you actually have a tough decision.

but yeah, in today's game it's not exactly a complex puzzle.

I think the DH debate has a lot of implications. When I was playing in high school and college it was bleeding in there. As a kid, some of our best players/hitters pitched also. Once we got into high school our genius coach decided he wanted to use DH and didnt let many of the pitchers even take batting practice. Great idea until we needed a PH in districts and the only guy available hadnt batted all spring because he was a pitcher...who BTW was a decent hitter in American Legion the previous summer Why short yourself of players by limiting their roles. (Bob Forsch, Bob Gibson, Rick Rhoden were assets vs. automatic outs.)

DH in NL or not, it has changed the game. How many NL pitchers go up to the plate with no clue of a hit because they were "groomed" as pitchers. One thing to be bad, another to never have been developed. Would the NBA ever consider a DS (designated shooter) for those like Shaq who sucked at free throws? Look what the specialist reliever did to pitchers. No one ever completes a game anymore due to the money invested in the arms of SP. Think of how much time adding the DH to the NL would add? What if Matt Carpenter were the DH and made every AB a 10 pitch AB vs. a pitcher who is usually quick whether sacrifice or strikeout or hit.

The only thing I do support that is similar is courtesy runner for catchers in HS. It is not really to get a fast runner to replace a slow runner but rather allow the game to move faster by having the catcher ready to go out vs. end the innings on the bases. Base running is a lot less of a skill than actually hitting.

Rightly or Wrongly, its all about injuries and money. I do think the strategic impact of DH is lessened. You dont have to plan around pitcher spot and I think you see fewer double switches so you have a bit less flexibility in AL but do not have the specific data to support that statement. Does it change the game that much? Does it really add a lot of value? Not sure but I do think AL teams with pure impact DHs are penalized in NL parks have an impact more than an NL team getting to add a hitter who is usually just an extra or a regular getting a day off in the field replaced by a scrub.

For me, there is no amount of strategy that could make up for the travesty that is watching a pitcher attempt to hit.

great points d_rock... and an incredible amount of convincing research.

There is more strategy with pinch hitting no doubt about it. I think they should PH more often in the middle innings .
More strategy doesn't mean more realism in hitting or more excitement for the casual fan. DH accomplishes its purpose.

I wish the DH never happened, but it did, and it changed a lot of things based around pitchers not being complete players anymore.

I'm quite impartial to the DH. I like the fact it can extend the careers of some really good hitters. (Thome, Ortiz, E.Martinez just to name a few), besides being a good option for players that are great hitters but liabilities in the field.
On the other hand, it does eliminate strategy. Not having the DH doesn't only affect whether the Pitcher gets pinch hit for in certain situations but it also affects how the #8 hitter is pitched to, regardless of the inning, but more so based on the current situation at that time in the game, which could be greatly influenced by who is pitching, an Ace or #5 starter or scrub AAA fill in guy. Then there is the factor of who's available to pinch hit and how to use him beyond the pinch hit role, do you double-switch and leave him in the game. Lots of things to look at...

I like to see pitchers hit and bunting. I like to see a bullpen work because a pitcher gets pinch hit for.....I like to see the occasional good hitting pitcher who wins with the bat....I like the platooning pinch hitting and pinch hitting specialists and I think that pitchers should be baseball players not punters and kickers.....

dh is for kids baseball not real baseball.