So I am assuming that in a man to man defense, the match-ups are always 1-1, 2-2, 3-3, etc. no matter what type of offense they are defending. Is that an accurate assumption?

However, how do zone defenses work in HD? Say for a 3-2 zone, does each perimeter defender actually cover a part of the court (left,right,center), or does the engine just take the collective skills of the 3 perimeter defenders and combine them to cover the perimeter "zone". And how well does the zone work against the various offenses? I would guess a motion offense would find favorable match-ups against a player or two with weak defense, but does it really work this way? Does each offensive player keep moving around to different areas of the court, to eventually find a favorable match-up against a defensive player who was defending that area?

Posted by bjschumacher on 9/8/2020 7:39:00 PM (view original):
So I am assuming that in a man to man defense, the match-ups are always 1-1, 2-2, 3-3, etc. no matter what type of offense they are defending. Is that an accurate assumption?

However, how do zone defenses work in HD? Say for a 3-2 zone, does each perimeter defender actually cover a part of the court (left,right,center), or does the engine just take the collective skills of the 3 perimeter defenders and combine them to cover the perimeter "zone". And how well does the zone work against the various offenses? I would guess a motion offense would find favorable match-ups against a player or two with weak defense, but does it really work this way? Does each offensive player keep moving around to different areas of the court, to eventually find a favorable match-up against a defensive player who was defending that area?

In 2-3:
Engine averages ratings for 1-2 to guard the perimeter and 3-4 to guard the corners towards the bucket (effectively assuming the play is always half on each side--you can't try to target one side) and 5 to guard the basket.

Works best against 2pt shooting oriented offenses (0 in 2/3 is equivalent to -1.5 in man) with good ball-handling (for different reasons... it is effective in guarding 2pt scorers and deemphasizes ball-handling compared to PER). Having an elite shooter at the 3 is a pretty good way to attack this offense. But be ready, the other coach will know that and most definitely have that shooter doubled. Sometimes you'll have to start a bench shooter at the 3 if you want to take advantage of this and not be doubled.

In 3-2:
Engine takes the 1 alone to guard the top, then averages 2-3 to guard the corners and wings, and averages 4-5 to guard down low.

Works best against 3pt shooting oriented offenses (0 in 3/2 is equivalent to +1.5 in man) with good ball-handling (for different reasons... it is effective in guarding 3pt scorers and deemphasizes ball-handling compared to LP). Having an elite LP guy at the 3 is a RIDICULOUSLY good way to attack this offense. But be ready, the other coach will know that and most DEFINITELY have that player doubled. Sometimes you'll have to start a bench LP scorer at the 3 if you want to take advantage of this and not be doubled. That being said, I've had 100 LP 3s rip up 3-2s even while double-teamed.

The 3-2 is probably my favorite defense to go against in the game in D1, it's just so easy to exploit.


In man, a slashing 1 or 2 will mainly be guarded by the opposing 1/2 with a tiny bit of ath/de and a solid amount of sb from the opposing 4/5. In zone you're right to assume a slashing 1/2 will mainly be going up against bigs.

Now the part of your question about offensive sets, I would like to know they are pretty much all subtleties. Mo/Flex/Tri are nearly exactly the same.

I guess motion is the best set to play against a zone just because it focuses so hard on the PG's passing and less so on the PG's ball handling. When I run motion against press I sometimes have awkward situations in lower divisions where I'm having a 60 BH 90 PA guy running the point (since motion makes the 1's PA so important) and we turn over the ball a bit too much against a press. Since the major negative of motion compared to flex is its just a wee bit harder to have your studs average 20 (this is a huge subtlety) I guess that means motion is a little worse against zone than man compared to flex since flex can really exploit the lack of 1v1 matchups with stud defenders in a zone.

Everything is correct except in 3-2 it takes all 3 (PG,SG,SF) and averages them together and then 4-5 and averages them together. Never heard of 1 G by himself.

Thanks, guys.

I don't agree 3-2 is the easiest to attack. If you have good def/SB ratings at the 4/5. I play 3-2 (-2/-3) and it's very effective against LP 3's. Also zone is the easiest defense to double-team in. If a team has 1 or 2 scorers used over 30% of the distro then you double them. More effective then doubling in m2m. Also zone you don't get fatigue issues as other sets which let's you run 10 men deep.

Cub gives some good analysis, but I would definitely check quite a bit of it too. I play a lot of 3-2 (combo with press) and actually he’s not entirely wrong about the value of good LP scoring against a 3-2, I mean that’s pretty intuitive. Of course there’s no reason it has to come from the SF. Any paint scoring is going to be a good bet against your average 3-2 team, but against coaches who know what they’re doing, the trick is going to be running into excellent post defenders down low, and possibly a casual -2 to -4 defensive setting, which for any other defensive set would risk foul trouble. Zone is the best defense in the game at suppressing opponents fg% without fouling; ripping up a good zone sounds nice on paper, but having the personnel to actually do it is another thing.

Also, I’ve never really understood why some folks think motion offense requires more passing than ballhandling from the point guard. I think the opposite is pretty clearly true. Motion is the set closest to fastbreak, it’s what a fastbreak offense basically reverts to if it can’t pull off a fastbreak on a given possession, and it’s pretty well known that fastbreak by far emphasizes ballhandling over passing at every position, including point guard. Don’t get me wrong. Having good passing, especially at the 1, is nice regardless of set, it always makes your offense run a little better. But if there’s an offense that can’t do without a passing point guard, it’s triangle, and then I think flex is next in line.

“I would guess a motion offense would find favorable match-ups against a player or two with weak defense, but does it really work this way? Does each offensive player keep moving around to different areas of the court, to eventually find a favorable match-up against a defensive player who was defending that area?”

IMO, the best way to think about the offensive and defensive sets is that they have *slight* differences in how they emphasize different attributes. If you want motion to work the way you describe, and it could, you want to recruit a certain kind of team, and run it a certain kind of way. You want balanced scoring, relatively even distribution among at least 3, and preferably 4 players on the court at any given time. With flex and triangle in particular, you can utilize primary scorers a bit more before they run into an “overuse penalty.”

The way I understand it (based on Gillispie's posts from a fewww years back):

No poor defenders are "hidden" in the zone and no matchups in a conventional sense - All 5 defenders on the court are factoring (to varying degrees) into the defense of all shots, at all times.

In a 2-3:
-PG/SG are rated together by a common secret equation
-SF/PF are rated together by a different equation
-and the C is rated alone by yet another mysterious equation
the results of these calculations (weighted differently according to distance from the hoop) are averaged together in defense of the shot attempt.

In a 3-2:
-PG/SG/SF are rated by a certain secret equation
-PF/C are rated by a second unique equation
the results of these calculations are averaged together in defense of the shot - weighted differently according to where on the court the shot takes place.

source:
https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=490619

Posted by Bozack on 9/9/2020 12:29:00 AM (view original):
The way I understand it (based on Gillispie's posts from a fewww years back):

No poor defenders are "hidden" in the zone and no matchups in a conventional sense - All 5 defenders on the court are factoring (to varying degrees) into the defense of all shots, at all times.

In a 2-3:
-PG/SG are rated together by a common secret equation
-SF/PF are rated together by a different equation
-and the C is rated alone by yet another mysterious equation
the results of these calculations (weighted differently according to distance from the hoop) are averaged together in defense of the shot attempt.

In a 3-2:
-PG/SG/SF are rated by a certain secret equation
-PF/C are rated by a second unique equation
the results of these calculations are averaged together in defense of the shot - weighted differently according to where on the court the shot takes place.

source:
https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=490619

Yeah, I think that’s a bit closer to how it works than saying the guards or forwards are averaged or grouped. The difference is subtle, but I think it matters quite a bit in how someone is thinking about how they’re approaching a gameplan.

Also one thing cub mentioned that is correct, but to dig a little deeper for those new guys that may not understand exactly......

a 3-2, 0 setting is roughly equal to a +1.5 in M2M/press
a 2-3, 0 setting is roughly equal to a -1.5 in M2M/press

it's designed this way by the nature of the sets. If we look at a 0 setting as exactly what it is, normal defensive placement (not too extreme towards the paint and not too extreme towards the perimeter), the zone operates a bit different. 3-2 is heavy perimeter protection. So running 0 will naturally defend the arc a bit more than other sets with a 0 (that's where the +1.5 comes into play). Same with vice versa on the 2-3 defending the paint a bit more than a standard 0 in other sets.

if you're a new coach running zone, make sure to keep this in mind when setting your +/- setting for a game. It can be a big factor