Posted by bpielcmc on 4/4/2021 12:38:00 PM (view original):
How relevant is this debate over normal vs uptempo to teams running only fastbreak with man/zone D?

not very, but if you have really good depth you still want to consider running uptempo into fb/fcp teams and perhaps even press teams.

I like Shoe’s point regarding tempo’s implementation in affecting the game engine (player fatigue) very much.

Everyone focuses on the changes to HD needing to target recruiting issues. It’s curious to me why more coaches don’t see the lameness of both slowdown and uptempo in this game. The one dimensional tempo function of HD, in my opinion, is a larger problem to the game’s playability and marketability than recruiting and/or firings.

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/4/2021 12:37:00 PM (view original):
The most important thing to note in ALL of this, is that gil has a one track mind for D1. With that in mind, I'm not "against" what he is saying. I'm still on the fence and learning some things. But one thing I've clearly learned is that fb/press uptempo at D1 is much different that fb/press uptempo at the D2 level.

At D2, if I have a Man or Zone team and I'm up against a fp/press team that runs uptempo, I'm going to run slowdown 100% of the time. I've ruined the seasons of many teams that way. Fb/press teams that have had 80+ ATH/DEF/ST as a team average with 12 deep. Slowdown Man or Zone vs uptempo fb/press can be kryptonite! On the other hand, if I have the 80+ ATH/DEF/ST fb/press team, and I'm expecting Slowdown from a Man or Zone opponent, I always go normal.

Now at D1, it seems to me it's different. I'll have a great fb/press team and I see an 8 player Man or Zone team up next and my mouth starts to water! Then I proceed to get crushed and it's very irritating. I'm still working on finding out what works and doesn't work in D1. But it's very different with each division.

Factoring in which division one is talking about, is very important for this topic

Gil’s mindset is also very much grounded in the game, and an understanding of it, that existed a long time ago, really centered on the “fatigue cascade,” what triggers it, how to avoid it, etc. I just don’t concern myself too much with it. Focusing on an extreme negative outcome that could possibly happen a couple times per season, when you’re unlucky, is not a good way to optimize your team.

Neither of my D2 teams are actually optimal yet, Augustana only has 2 full seasons of FB IQ, and I’m still getting Barry’s personnel the way I want it. But both are defaulting to uptempo right now. They’re good enough to perform better at a higher pace, that is just clear through simple observation. That doesn’t mean I’ll always choose uptempo - there are some teams in both worlds that are just better, so I’ll adjust to that. And of course none of this means you can’t be upset once in a while. Upsets happen at any tempo, and are, by nature, a part of the game.

Kimball is a good one to watch at D1. In Naismith, he just beat me last night (he was uptempo, I was normal with the #1 team in the country, an 11 deep combo team). He knows what he’s doing. I don’t think it’s different in terms of how it functions - it is different in terms of how you can recruit, and what kind of teams and players you are up against, year over year.

The game is a big game of rock-paper-scissors, the things that work against some teams have weaknesses against others. Few teams are really indestructible. The closest you can really come, I think, is the 12 deep elite FB/press team with excellent stamina. And that team is going to be hardest to upset with the most possessions, because of how one-dimensional tempo is. I wish that wasn’t how the game works, but it is.

Thanks for all of the intel. Greatly appreciated.

Augustana’s season is actually a pretty good case study to see what I’m talking about. Because I started the season having basically only one year of FB IQ under the belt, and it’s the first year I really committed to FB with this team, I started exhibition left at normal tempo. We dropped one game (on the road to MSUM, by 3) where you could say in retrospect, maybe normal might have produced a better result; though importantly, the opponent here clearly suffered greater fatigue than my team. The foul outs were a product of a close game, with a bunch of fouls clustered at the end. This result is much better explained as a tough sim on the road, rather than a tempo mistake, which is validated by the rematch.

The defending national champs beat us going uptempo, but again suffered much more fatigue (and fouled more) than we did. We just shot under 40% on the road. Tough sim. Other good, deep teams ran uptempo against us, and got throttled. The other upset was an excellent defensive team that slowed down. You’d be hard pressed to convince me that decreasing possessions with normal tempo in that game would have increased the odds of victory.

This team is still a couple seasons away from really being “optimal,” which will be when seniors will have had full 4 seasons of both sets. But it’s good enough where it’s pretty clear that it benefits from the increased possessions; as long as it has enough stamina to handle the stress, and enough speed/BH to keep TOs down.

Posted by gillispie on 4/4/2021 1:19:00 PM (view original):
i've had an agenda to address this tempo topic for a while... apologize for the length and its only shoe-directed because it happened to be that way. its really just a writeup of my thoughts on an imbalance i've been trying to address for the past couple months (the misunderstanding around press tempo and how it works for and against both sides)

Yea tell that logic to this team....

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=4981

Or any of arfys teams.

Late edit: I am the idiot.... arfy isn't FB here. Doh!

From the perspective of someone who's been running fb/man for the past 20 seasons or so (2 different teams), I can say that the uptempo fastbreak doesn't tire the opponent nearly as much as the press does. In fact, it seems to tire my own players quite a bit more than the opponents, which combined with the increased turnovers from the fastbreak, can be bad news unless you have really elite bh/pass.

So if the press defense is what is creating the vast majority of the opponent's fatigue, I can see gillispie's point. Unless the opponent is really short-handed and the uptempo fastbreak might squeeze their depth a little more, it doesn't make a ton of sense to run uptempo fb/press.

Posted by mlitney on 4/5/2021 9:16:00 AM (view original):
From the perspective of someone who's been running fb/man for the past 20 seasons or so (2 different teams), I can say that the uptempo fastbreak doesn't tire the opponent nearly as much as the press does. In fact, it seems to tire my own players quite a bit more than the opponents, which combined with the increased turnovers from the fastbreak, can be bad news unless you have really elite bh/pass.

So if the press defense is what is creating the vast majority of the opponent's fatigue, I can see gillispie's point. Unless the opponent is really short-handed and the uptempo fastbreak might squeeze their depth a little more, it doesn't make a ton of sense to run uptempo fb/press.

Well again, driving the other team into fatigue problems isn’t really the point. It can be a happy byproduct, but it isn’t necessary for uptempo to work when your team is built for it to work. I run uptempo with very good FB/press teams to maximize the number of possessions in the game, when I am confident the extra possessions will work to my benefit.

Like I’ve said, the team needs to be built for it. That means great stamina and position balance to handle the stress, and excellent speed and BH. I mean you kind of answered your own question within - “elite bh/pass” (the pass is not emphasized in FB, but it’s important at the pg position as with all sets) to avoid turnovers. That’s the kind of team you need for it to make sense. I don’t really know what gil is talking about when he says it’s a decent scheme for lesser teams; it really isn’t. It’s not the kind of thing where you just send up a Hail Mary and try something and hope it works. It doesn’t work like that. If your team isn’t built to do it, don’t try to do it. You need those things for it to work well, OR you need to have the vastly superior overall team, such that deficiencies in those areas just don’t matter.

Posted by shoe3 on 4/4/2021 2:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/4/2021 12:37:00 PM (view original):
The most important thing to note in ALL of this, is that gil has a one track mind for D1. With that in mind, I'm not "against" what he is saying. I'm still on the fence and learning some things. But one thing I've clearly learned is that fb/press uptempo at D1 is much different that fb/press uptempo at the D2 level.

At D2, if I have a Man or Zone team and I'm up against a fp/press team that runs uptempo, I'm going to run slowdown 100% of the time. I've ruined the seasons of many teams that way. Fb/press teams that have had 80+ ATH/DEF/ST as a team average with 12 deep. Slowdown Man or Zone vs uptempo fb/press can be kryptonite! On the other hand, if I have the 80+ ATH/DEF/ST fb/press team, and I'm expecting Slowdown from a Man or Zone opponent, I always go normal.

Now at D1, it seems to me it's different. I'll have a great fb/press team and I see an 8 player Man or Zone team up next and my mouth starts to water! Then I proceed to get crushed and it's very irritating. I'm still working on finding out what works and doesn't work in D1. But it's very different with each division.

Factoring in which division one is talking about, is very important for this topic

Gil’s mindset is also very much grounded in the game, and an understanding of it, that existed a long time ago, really centered on the “fatigue cascade,” what triggers it, how to avoid it, etc. I just don’t concern myself too much with it. Focusing on an extreme negative outcome that could possibly happen a couple times per season, when you’re unlucky, is not a good way to optimize your team.

Neither of my D2 teams are actually optimal yet, Augustana only has 2 full seasons of FB IQ, and I’m still getting Barry’s personnel the way I want it. But both are defaulting to uptempo right now. They’re good enough to perform better at a higher pace, that is just clear through simple observation. That doesn’t mean I’ll always choose uptempo - there are some teams in both worlds that are just better, so I’ll adjust to that. And of course none of this means you can’t be upset once in a while. Upsets happen at any tempo, and are, by nature, a part of the game.

Kimball is a good one to watch at D1. In Naismith, he just beat me last night (he was uptempo, I was normal with the #1 team in the country, an 11 deep combo team). He knows what he’s doing. I don’t think it’s different in terms of how it functions - it is different in terms of how you can recruit, and what kind of teams and players you are up against, year over year.

The game is a big game of rock-paper-scissors, the things that work against some teams have weaknesses against others. Few teams are really indestructible. The closest you can really come, I think, is the 12 deep elite FB/press team with excellent stamina. And that team is going to be hardest to upset with the most possessions, because of how one-dimensional tempo is. I wish that wasn’t how the game works, but it is.

while i did start ages ago and my first 2 press 'great runs' were from the prior era, when press worked much differently, the other 2 were about 5-6 years ago when press worked the same way it does now. so i'm not exactly sure where this notion that i'm talking about strategies from a bygone era comes from. i get you are trying to find a way to reconcile or explain our differences but sadly that's not it.

kimball is a great coach who is doing a nice job figuring out that fb/fcp scheme he's been working on for some time, but he's not here to speak for himself, so i'm not sure how that really factors in. i do think its interesting in your example, he's running uptempo INTO the #1 team... my statement on fb/fcp uptempo is that you have it precisely backwards, its perhaps ok for the underdog trying to pull one over, but not for the favorite (facing a quality opponents of depth).

'Few teams are really indestructible. The closest you can really come, I think, is the 12 deep elite FB/press team with excellent stamina' - i used to think this, too, and its a quite reasonable thing to think. heck, i've said it here on these boards myself, even since the press change 10 years ago which turned the subject on its head (however, it was in the context of the best team ever, which to me meant if you got your pick of the entire recruit gen; even back then i doubted fb/fcp could outstrip straight press in the confines of what is actually achievable for the best coaches) - but in reality, its a 12 deep straight press, and its not even close. perhaps my biggest challenge in HD is taking my learned experiences from building nearly indestructible press teams, which is where my high intensity coaching and learning all took place, and translating that to a more universal experience. everything i said about fouls and fatigue... its at its max at the absolute highest level, where for that precise reason, straight press has a substantial edge over fb/fcp.

Posted by shoe3 on 4/5/2021 10:57:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mlitney on 4/5/2021 9:16:00 AM (view original):
From the perspective of someone who's been running fb/man for the past 20 seasons or so (2 different teams), I can say that the uptempo fastbreak doesn't tire the opponent nearly as much as the press does. In fact, it seems to tire my own players quite a bit more than the opponents, which combined with the increased turnovers from the fastbreak, can be bad news unless you have really elite bh/pass.

So if the press defense is what is creating the vast majority of the opponent's fatigue, I can see gillispie's point. Unless the opponent is really short-handed and the uptempo fastbreak might squeeze their depth a little more, it doesn't make a ton of sense to run uptempo fb/press.

Well again, driving the other team into fatigue problems isn’t really the point. It can be a happy byproduct, but it isn’t necessary for uptempo to work when your team is built for it to work. I run uptempo with very good FB/press teams to maximize the number of possessions in the game, when I am confident the extra possessions will work to my benefit.

Like I’ve said, the team needs to be built for it. That means great stamina and position balance to handle the stress, and excellent speed and BH. I mean you kind of answered your own question within - “elite bh/pass” (the pass is not emphasized in FB, but it’s important at the pg position as with all sets) to avoid turnovers. That’s the kind of team you need for it to make sense. I don’t really know what gil is talking about when he says it’s a decent scheme for lesser teams; it really isn’t. It’s not the kind of thing where you just send up a Hail Mary and try something and hope it works. It doesn’t work like that. If your team isn’t built to do it, don’t try to do it. You need those things for it to work well, OR you need to have the vastly superior overall team, such that deficiencies in those areas just don’t matter.

what i mean is, fb/fcp is a fantastic way to punch above your weight. its a stellar scheme for mid majors, low end BCS programs trying to survive their brutal confs, etc - you can over-punch on talent, and what 'talent' means in fb/fcp deviates from 'the norm' by more than any other scheme. so you both get to fight a somewhat asymmetrical battle, and you get to punch up - both great things for teams of lesser talent.

i think uptempo fb/fcp is just bad math in general, but the lower end teams are going to be facing a lot more imperfect opponents, at least in the range of the opponents they aren't hail-marying against. and btw, yes, the hail mary uptempo fb/fcp is a very significant thing and i would probably even run that in like a 1v16 as the 16, you know, not always, but definitely sometimes. but that wasn't really my point. my point was if you are going to be facing all these messed up, ugly duckling teams, the chance your depth-focused fb/fcp can handle the additional foul/fatigue trouble of uptempo better than the opponent, is absolutely going to be way higher than if you restrict your concerns to competition among the top 10 teams. which means as a default scheme, uptempo fb/fcp is far less clearly problematic. its that top 10 level play, where well craft fb/fcp teams are facing well crafted teams of other types, where uptempo fb/fcp is garbage.

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2021 6:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 4/4/2021 1:19:00 PM (view original):
i've had an agenda to address this tempo topic for a while... apologize for the length and its only shoe-directed because it happened to be that way. its really just a writeup of my thoughts on an imbalance i've been trying to address for the past couple months (the misunderstanding around press tempo and how it works for and against both sides)

Yea tell that logic to this team....

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=4981

Or any of arfys teams.

Late edit: I am the idiot.... arfy isn't FB here. Doh!

2 things -

a top d2 coach, as i understand it, is trying to push the boundaries of stamina and depth in press and seeing what that can do. he's probably going to be pretty successful, for a couple reasons. foremost, he is an excellent coach, especially in the d2/d3 range. also, today's d2/d3 are relative perversions of HD, given their low pop and ridiculous talent, especially on the offensive side of the ball. the result is press-heavy worlds with a less than stellar amount of competition.

everything i said about foul/fatigue trouble and its relation to tempo in this thread was predicated on the comparison of the marginal ability of one team to handle the incremental foul/fatigue trouble to another. in short, which team is getting shafted worse by the extra foul/fatigue trouble? that is the central theme (for fb/fcp uptempo discussion). if you are a top coach running straight press with insane stamina, in a world where there's not that many opponents who matter and most of them run press with less stamina - with fb/fcp usage also being at its peak in HD history - uptempo straight press is going to be at its maximal appropriateness. so he's definitely the edge case there. IMO, if arfy faces a 12 deep m2m team of comparable talent in the NT with that high stamina press he's running, should he run uptempo? absolutely not. i'd be curious to know his opinion, but also like, how often does that happen? but further, extending conclusions from his experiment to a general fb/fcp context, and especially any d1-based context, would be a mistake.

Posted by gillispie on 4/5/2021 11:42:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/4/2021 2:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/4/2021 12:37:00 PM (view original):
The most important thing to note in ALL of this, is that gil has a one track mind for D1. With that in mind, I'm not "against" what he is saying. I'm still on the fence and learning some things. But one thing I've clearly learned is that fb/press uptempo at D1 is much different that fb/press uptempo at the D2 level.

At D2, if I have a Man or Zone team and I'm up against a fp/press team that runs uptempo, I'm going to run slowdown 100% of the time. I've ruined the seasons of many teams that way. Fb/press teams that have had 80+ ATH/DEF/ST as a team average with 12 deep. Slowdown Man or Zone vs uptempo fb/press can be kryptonite! On the other hand, if I have the 80+ ATH/DEF/ST fb/press team, and I'm expecting Slowdown from a Man or Zone opponent, I always go normal.

Now at D1, it seems to me it's different. I'll have a great fb/press team and I see an 8 player Man or Zone team up next and my mouth starts to water! Then I proceed to get crushed and it's very irritating. I'm still working on finding out what works and doesn't work in D1. But it's very different with each division.

Factoring in which division one is talking about, is very important for this topic

Gil’s mindset is also very much grounded in the game, and an understanding of it, that existed a long time ago, really centered on the “fatigue cascade,” what triggers it, how to avoid it, etc. I just don’t concern myself too much with it. Focusing on an extreme negative outcome that could possibly happen a couple times per season, when you’re unlucky, is not a good way to optimize your team.

Neither of my D2 teams are actually optimal yet, Augustana only has 2 full seasons of FB IQ, and I’m still getting Barry’s personnel the way I want it. But both are defaulting to uptempo right now. They’re good enough to perform better at a higher pace, that is just clear through simple observation. That doesn’t mean I’ll always choose uptempo - there are some teams in both worlds that are just better, so I’ll adjust to that. And of course none of this means you can’t be upset once in a while. Upsets happen at any tempo, and are, by nature, a part of the game.

Kimball is a good one to watch at D1. In Naismith, he just beat me last night (he was uptempo, I was normal with the #1 team in the country, an 11 deep combo team). He knows what he’s doing. I don’t think it’s different in terms of how it functions - it is different in terms of how you can recruit, and what kind of teams and players you are up against, year over year.

The game is a big game of rock-paper-scissors, the things that work against some teams have weaknesses against others. Few teams are really indestructible. The closest you can really come, I think, is the 12 deep elite FB/press team with excellent stamina. And that team is going to be hardest to upset with the most possessions, because of how one-dimensional tempo is. I wish that wasn’t how the game works, but it is.

while i did start ages ago and my first 2 press 'great runs' were from the prior era, when press worked much differently, the other 2 were about 5-6 years ago when press worked the same way it does now. so i'm not exactly sure where this notion that i'm talking about strategies from a bygone era comes from. i get you are trying to find a way to reconcile or explain our differences but sadly that's not it.

kimball is a great coach who is doing a nice job figuring out that fb/fcp scheme he's been working on for some time, but he's not here to speak for himself, so i'm not sure how that really factors in. i do think its interesting in your example, he's running uptempo INTO the #1 team... my statement on fb/fcp uptempo is that you have it precisely backwards, its perhaps ok for the underdog trying to pull one over, but not for the favorite (facing a quality opponents of depth).

'Few teams are really indestructible. The closest you can really come, I think, is the 12 deep elite FB/press team with excellent stamina' - i used to think this, too, and its a quite reasonable thing to think. heck, i've said it here on these boards myself, even since the press change 10 years ago which turned the subject on its head (however, it was in the context of the best team ever, which to me meant if you got your pick of the entire recruit gen; even back then i doubted fb/fcp could outstrip straight press in the confines of what is actually achievable for the best coaches) - but in reality, its a 12 deep straight press, and its not even close. perhaps my biggest challenge in HD is taking my learned experiences from building nearly indestructible press teams, which is where my high intensity coaching and learning all took place, and translating that to a more universal experience. everything i said about fouls and fatigue... its at its max at the absolute highest level, where for that precise reason, straight press has a substantial edge over fb/fcp.

“so i'm not exactly sure where this notion that i'm talking about strategies from a bygone era comes from. i get you are trying to find a way to reconcile or explain our differences but sadly that's not it.”

It’s not so much that the era is “bygone“, as the idea of the “fatigue cascade” was very dominant in that era, and has less meaning (especially to me) now. I don’t really care about reconciling our differences; believe me, “gil thinks you’re doing it wrong” is pretty low on my list of places to give a ****. As most folks who have played around me know, I enjoy doing things other people don’t do, or don’t think can be done, so really you are making the game even more fun for me. Maybe I should thank you. :)

Anyway, kimball’s teams are hardly underdogs (my point in mentioning UConn’s position at that point was only that his opponent was also strong, and not inclined to try some squirrel counterpunch - and so it is a good case study to check claims made about fatigue and fouls among teams at the highest levels of D1). Stanford was #7 (currently #2), I had them in my top 3 in my preseason assessment (per CC), rated 768 overall. It’s a damn good team, par for the course for kimball. He’s not going uptempo praying Hail Mary’s, he’s maximizing possessions, with teams built to make the most of them; I don’t KNOW that is his intent, I’m certainly not speaking for him, but that is what is happening. In any case, I brought kimball into the discussion in reply to doggg, who introduced the difference in divisions. It is important to note, I think, that the game functions the same way at all 3 levels, and the only difference is in what kind of recruits you’re talking about.

As for the rest of the stuff on “straight” press vs a press played alongside an uptempo FB offense, I will just reiterate that all the qualifications I make about a team “built for it” - enough stamina to handle the stress, speed and ballhandling to mitigate turnovers, and though it doesn’t relate specifically to FB, ath/def in general to avoid foul trouble - those qualifications are there to make the determination. If all that is true, the math adds up. Does that mean I run uptempo against another very strong FB/press team? Probably not, unless I am very confident I still have those advantages.

Anyway, this “garbage” talk is, as is sometimes the case, just silly gil talk. Putting together a deep, balanced team, built to push tempo, maximize possessions, and counteract prevailing team-building trends that try to focus on short rotations instead of depth is a completely viable strategy, among many. As with all strategies, it will have risks and rewards, and its success will depend upon execution.

Posted by gillispie on 4/5/2021 11:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 4/5/2021 6:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 4/4/2021 1:19:00 PM (view original):
i've had an agenda to address this tempo topic for a while... apologize for the length and its only shoe-directed because it happened to be that way. its really just a writeup of my thoughts on an imbalance i've been trying to address for the past couple months (the misunderstanding around press tempo and how it works for and against both sides)

Yea tell that logic to this team....

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=4981

Or any of arfys teams.

Late edit: I am the idiot.... arfy isn't FB here. Doh!

2 things -

a top d2 coach, as i understand it, is trying to push the boundaries of stamina and depth in press and seeing what that can do. he's probably going to be pretty successful, for a couple reasons. foremost, he is an excellent coach, especially in the d2/d3 range. also, today's d2/d3 are relative perversions of HD, given their low pop and ridiculous talent, especially on the offensive side of the ball. the result is press-heavy worlds with a less than stellar amount of competition.

everything i said about foul/fatigue trouble and its relation to tempo in this thread was predicated on the comparison of the marginal ability of one team to handle the incremental foul/fatigue trouble to another. in short, which team is getting shafted worse by the extra foul/fatigue trouble? that is the central theme (for fb/fcp uptempo discussion). if you are a top coach running straight press with insane stamina, in a world where there's not that many opponents who matter and most of them run press with less stamina - with fb/fcp usage also being at its peak in HD history - uptempo straight press is going to be at its maximal appropriateness. so he's definitely the edge case there. IMO, if arfy faces a 12 deep m2m team of comparable talent in the NT with that high stamina press he's running, should he run uptempo? absolutely not. i'd be curious to know his opinion, but also like, how often does that happen? but further, extending conclusions from his experiment to a general fb/fcp context, and especially any d1-based context, would be a mistake.

From my standpoint, the central theme is not foul/fatigue. I understand that is what your math is based on, I am just using different calculus. From my standpoint, whether or not Arfy “should” run uptempo against x, y, or z opponent is not really germane. I mean, he can do what he wants, but moreover, the OP is specifically on FB, and this is not a FB team. However, a question pertinent to this discussion is whether the team Arfy has now would be stronger if it was FB; like given the same IQ, would it be harder to beat, given the stamina, and overall advantages it has. That’s an interesting question. If it’s vulnerable, it’s vulnerable to a team with 8 or 9 elite players slowing down. That vulnerability is only really mitigated through more possessions, and FB does that better than flex.