3 or 4 guard lineups Topic

Anybody have experience running 3 or 4 guard lineups?

I'm running press, and with the way my recruiting class is shaping up I think at the very least I will try to get some backup SF and possibly even PF minutes to a SG or 2.

IRL, and especially when either running a press or facing a press, there would be positive tradeoffs (better ball handling/passing/outside shooting plus better full court defense) along with the negatives (sacrificing rebounding/int. def).

Since HD is fairly simplified on defense, I wonder whether or not there would be an "interior defense" hit - especially if the SG playing PF has high athl & def. In that case, the only negative would be that I would only have 1 rebounder. That's not ideal, but if the pros of my press def. being better and the other benefits my guards would bring outweigh the rebounding concern this might be my best lineup approach.
4/6/2021 11:56 AM
good question. the 3rd guard for sure helps. i did not expect it to be so, but what i found pursuing an elite press at all costs was that the turnover creation at the 3 remains highly important while i saw a major drop off for the 4 and 5. my experience was that pushing for crazy speed at the 1-3, and crazy good defense in general (def/spd/ath) from the 1-3, yielded great returns and was always worthwhile. however, adding additional guards or SFs at the 4 and even 5, i got basically nothing.

what is unclear to me though is the extent to which, for example, good turnover creation at the 4 can offset less than stellar players at the 1-3. for example, i never tried a really speed 4 with slow crappy sg and sf. my overall belief is that turnover creation is a team sport (this is almost certainly true) and that basically you hit diminishing returns at a certain point - put simply, the game won't just let you run 10 guards and create 30 turnovers a game. i think the contributions to the team turnover creation score, if you will, are heavily weighted with a small dropoff from 2 to 3 and a major drop off to the 4 and 5... where a high end 1-3 defensively / turnover wise essentially 'maxes' your score, but where the 4 and perhaps even a little bit the 5, could help with turnover creation in lieu of a strong 1-3 defensively. however because they are significantly smaller contributors, the 4/5, i'd expect to only chip away at any deficit in the 1-3.

to your point about the negatives, it is mostly the rebounding as you suggest it could be. i do think interior defense takes a hit, but interior defense is essentially def, ath, and blk, and a guard at the 3-4 will usually be an ath type guard not a speed type one (or at least a hybrid), and thus will probably be on par with the big or sf they are replacing, in ath/def terms, but of course that is a generalization. in press, blk matters the least of any scheme, so the relative hit from less blk in that guard is not that big, but if you are giving up ath/def, this is noticeable. i worked hard to try to use 4 guard lineups on super high end teams against really high end competition, and i couldn't make it work, but it was almost entirely due to the difficulty in replacing the rebounding, and that was usually with really good rebounding guards / sfs making the slide right, where i felt i was almost ideally suited for the slide (they also would have been really good ath/def wise).
4/6/2021 1:29 PM
gil covered it pretty much - but going 3 guard rotation in the press is pretty normal, particularly at lower levels where there aren't as many 3's with great ATH/SPD/DEF. 3 guard rotations work well with pretty much any offense too. It's nice, obviously, if the guard at the 3 has some rebounding ability and LP can't hurt but as cubcub will shout from the rooftops, guards with solid LP at any position (1, 2, or 3) are great to have. Most of my 3's at DePauw in Knight are converted PG's or SG's. I change their positions because I'm annoying and like to maximize the # of conference all-american spots my players can grab.

4 guard rotation...I've done it with kids with very high ATH and respectable REB (40+) at D3 but I've never run a 4 guard starting rotation at D2 or D1. To gil's point, there's no reason to run someone with "guard traits" at the 4, even in the press. theonlydeal had a BYU squad a few seasons back in...Phelan? Tark? I can't remember. But I believe he ran a 4 guard starting lineup with an elite forward/center at the 5 running FB/press.

Running a high ATH/high SPD/high DEF guard at the 4 though who has no rebounding, block, or low post probably isn't going to help you all that much unless you're light years more athletic than your opponent.
4/6/2021 2:53 PM
Thanks for the feedback!
4/6/2021 4:16 PM
I had 2 crappy recruiting classes in my first 2 tries since jumping back into HD a couple months ago, so I'm really excited about this one.

I've signed 3 PGs with BH & pass min-maxes in the 80s, and two of them have green per ratings - one min-max 77 and the other min-max 95 - so I'm excited to see what they can do on offense. The third guy won't be as good of a shooter/scorer, but he's got green def so hopefully he can offset the other two guys' sub-par def ratings (they're each 37 & black potential, so they'll max out between 45 & 56 def).

I'm very excited about keeping this guy in the state of AR and winning a battle against human coached (until after the season) Southern U. in Louisiana.
https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/RecruitProfile/Ratings.aspx?rid=5287381
4/6/2021 4:49 PM
unfortunately we can't see the potential of your players (if you post them in the HD discord or on like a little image hosting tiny url site, then we can), so kinda hard to respond to the recruits specifically, but its great you are getting some traction in recruiting. just curious, when you say they have min-max ratings of X, like min-max 77 or min-max per of 95, what do you mean by that?
4/6/2021 5:02 PM
Posted by gillispie on 4/6/2021 5:02:00 PM (view original):
unfortunately we can't see the potential of your players (if you post them in the HD discord or on like a little image hosting tiny url site, then we can), so kinda hard to respond to the recruits specifically, but its great you are getting some traction in recruiting. just curious, when you say they have min-max ratings of X, like min-max 77 or min-max per of 95, what do you mean by that?
Its got to mean the minimum amount a player will maximize to. Or to say maybe more clearly, the minimum amount of a player's maximum growth. I think 28 points would be the min-max amount for a green potential's growth.
4/6/2021 5:43 PM
Atkinson:
https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/RecruitProfile/Ratings.aspx?rid=5287905

His min-max for perimeter is 77. Currently 49 & green. 49 + 28 minimum growth since it's green = 77 min-max.
Min-max for BH is 85. 65 current & blue. 65 + 20 minimum growth = 85 min-max.
Min-max for pass is 86. 78 current & black. 78 + 8 minimum growth = 86 min-max.

Gilchrist:
https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/RecruitProfile/Ratings.aspx?rid=5287381

67 current per & green = 95 min-max
66 current BH & green = 94 min-max
56 current pass & green = 84 min-max
4/7/2021 5:21 PM
Oh yeah, I meant to list Gilchrist's potentials with the link yesterday. Sorry.

Athl - 31 blue
Spd - 84 red
Def - 37 black
Per - 67 green
BH - 66 green
Pass - 56 green
Stam - 71 blue
Dur - 48 green
FT - B- yellow
4/7/2021 5:25 PM
Posted by bpielcmc on 4/6/2021 5:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gillispie on 4/6/2021 5:02:00 PM (view original):
unfortunately we can't see the potential of your players (if you post them in the HD discord or on like a little image hosting tiny url site, then we can), so kinda hard to respond to the recruits specifically, but its great you are getting some traction in recruiting. just curious, when you say they have min-max ratings of X, like min-max 77 or min-max per of 95, what do you mean by that?
Its got to mean the minimum amount a player will maximize to. Or to say maybe more clearly, the minimum amount of a player's maximum growth. I think 28 points would be the min-max amount for a green potential's growth.
ahh ok yeah that makes total sense
4/7/2021 10:52 PM
Posted by bigham23 on 4/7/2021 5:21:00 PM (view original):
Atkinson:
https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/RecruitProfile/Ratings.aspx?rid=5287905

His min-max for perimeter is 77. Currently 49 & green. 49 + 28 minimum growth since it's green = 77 min-max.
Min-max for BH is 85. 65 current & blue. 65 + 20 minimum growth = 85 min-max.
Min-max for pass is 86. 78 current & black. 78 + 8 minimum growth = 86 min-max.

Gilchrist:
https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/RecruitProfile/Ratings.aspx?rid=5287381

67 current per & green = 95 min-max
66 current BH & green = 94 min-max
56 current pass & green = 84 min-max
makes sense. gilchrist should be amazing for you scoring, some good ratings there for d2.

very small FYI - blue is 21-27, so your +20 min technically should be +21
4/7/2021 10:53 PM
Awesome, thanks! Good to know I should be using 21-27 as the potential range for blues instead of 20-27. (and I assume that also means I should be using 8-20 instead of 8-19 for average/black potential)

I posted screenshots of my recruits from this class in the discord server, although I just got the notice that the ineligible I signed spurned me for the Juco route.
4/8/2021 11:14 AM
3 or 4 guard lineups Topic

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