Posted by Benis on 11/19/2021 2:01:00 PM (view original):
"meanwhile, the advantage from multiple teams is dwarfed by the impact ofrecruiting collusion between local power schools, so we are basically worrying about the small part of the small part of the problem here"

Can you share some examples of this happening recently? I realize this may have been an issue 10 years ago but has anyone called this out recently? In the 7 years I've been playing HD, I can't think of any controversies like this.

I could be mistaken so please correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like you're either remembering things that USED to happen or youre calling out things that COULD happen while downplaying the issues that actually are happening.

well, like i said at some point, i'm sure my perspective coming from a time when we had much bigger fair play issues colors my opinion here, perhaps i over-minimize some of the stuff that goes on today, that is probably the case. do folks still collude in recruiting? i'm sure there is some of that, although i suspect its more benign with things like, two friends working to avoid recruiting against each other, which is definitely a lot more muted in impact than the more widespread stuff that used to happen between strangers.

but anyway, i agree with what you are saying that its way better on that front now. i don't think it makes it irrelevant though. i think its relevant in a few ways - for example, its important contextually that the long term trend of the game is clearly towards a better place, fair play wise. some of the sky-is-falling type of comments are frankly unwarranted, given that context.

its also relevant history when considering the rush for pitchforks that happens around here when someone is found on the wrong side of the line. like that guy who threw that NT game with no prior fair play issues. the reality of the progress around recruiting collusion is that it was a battle of hearts and minds. CS had to come in and say recruiting collusion wasn't ok, and that happened, but it took a lot of years for the situation to get to the markedly better state we are in. most of that progress was made via private sitemails and exchanges between coaches on different sides of the issue. you guys see fair play violations and you see enemies, you smell blood. what i see is potential future allies.

We can comment all we want. The true verdict is delivered in the success of the game. Gil, I'm guessing you're like me and haven't paid for the game in quite some time. If you paid like many others do, and watched things happen as they are, I believe you may feel different. Maybe not. It's easy for us to sit on our perch as elite coaches and throw comments. But our opinion matters the least. What matters the most is retaining people that pay to get to our situation. It's a different world for those trying to breakthrough. Different mindsets. There's hundreds of people paying and not commenting. If they feel uneasy about how things are handled, that hurts the game a lot in the long run. Not to mention the fact that if they see that no example is being set, why not play shady as well? I personally see so much more to it than you do. Turning a blind eye won't help things. I'm just not sure I grasp your vision on this. The issues you're referring to are no where near being a real issue. Avoiding a friend in recruiting? Who cares. There's 1000s of players. Maybe better options. Maybe the friend is an A+ prestige and battling a B+ prestige is a better choice, friend or not. The big issue here we're referring to is NOT because a coach had a school less than 1000 miles apart. That is a drop in the bucket. If that was it, we wouldn't have multiple threads with dozens of posts. Its about entire profiles with multiple teams in multiple worlds in violation. And the obvious intent in why it was happening. And the reoccurrence after already getting caught. And now reoccurring again. I mean, what would get your attention that this isn't good? A forum post that states "I'M BLATANTLY CHEATING". Would that move the needle enough?

The guy that threw the NT game you mentioned. I don't even remember who it was now. I wasn't really apart of that one. But you mention pitchforks, no one has even spoken his name since then (at least I don't think so). It's not something anybody dwelled on. It happened, it got discussed, it's over and forgotten. That's not pitchforks. I'm going to "assume" he plays in good faith now. Or else someone would've noticed. It's not difficult to sniff out a rat here. It's usually blatantly obvious.

What's also obvious is that no one is changing anyone's mind here in their opinions. Which is cool. I just wish you cared more about this ONE issue. Because it's a fact that you care about defending it. Most (not all) comments in this thread are the same direction. But yours are mostly "yea but,......" and you're an important member here as well. It's less about witch hunting one, and more about keeping the rest content/happy.

i care about it a lot, i wouldn't engage in all this conversation if i didn't. fair play is important to me, too. i just would like to see it gone about a little differently.

the guy that threw the NT game is a good example. i agree he's presumably playing in good faith now and it hasn't been discussed much since, and that folks probably treat him just fine now. but that situation was obviously pretty hard on the guy, folks weren't happy he tried to pass off some crazy story instead of owning up, which i halfway agree with. but i also empathized with his situation. the guy was obviously freaking out a little bit, he'd never had a fair play experience, and he'd just been removed from a program he put months into, i think he was banned from the game at the moment. i suspect that was a pretty bad experience for him, and to your point about wanting to build a successful game, its not great for folks to be having those.

i don't even really disagree to folks who go 'well, he deserved it.' you have justification. i just think we could have reached the outcomes that are important to us in these situations - that the coach either leaves or follows the rules - and that there is a deterrent - without it being such a brutal experience for the guy. you have had 500 conversations about fair play, and i think you've lost sight of what its be like to be in a position where you've had zero. i think the guy could have been brought around to fair play, in a way where he felt more connected to a compassionate community, and to this game for the long run. i can't image he feels that way now.

the problem with the ab situation is, he clearly deserves to be removed. but CS can't handle situations individually, and therefore by calling the punishment he got for this 2nd time being reported to CS (many teams removed) nothing and anything less than a total ban unacceptable, you are in effect calling for a more brutal, unforgiving system around fair play. i think the system is brutal enough. its not that i don't care, i just feel like the important objectives could be won, while ALSO bringing people into the community, instead of having such division and negativity around these issues.

Fair enough!

Ab just took my team. I mean it’s my fault. I forgot to renew, I really don’t care , I like rebuilds. I just thought I would mention it. He’ll probably win a championship when I would be knocked out in the 2nd round.

I was wondering why you did that, considering you have mostly upperclassmen. But I think we have all forgotten to renew before.