I have a D2 program. Pursuing a D2 prospect who is 'Very High' on me, is a great match in every way except 'long-term coach', listed as wanting to sign 'Early', and who has no other offers or even much interest. Have gone through 6 offer periods now with the early signing window open and he still hasn't signed. What the heck? What am I missing?
Oh, and I have 4 scholarships available. Am I forgetting a setting somewhere?
11/15/2021 11:17 AM
They can sign any cycle during the first recruiting session. If he hasn’t signed yet you just gotta wait it out until he does.
11/15/2021 12:22 PM
I'd assume you've offered the scholarship, correct?

Is he a JUCO? If he is, will he put you over the 6 players in one grade level limitation?

Otherwise, you just have to wait it out. If you're VH and no one else is on him then I wouldn't worry about it too much.
11/15/2021 12:29 PM
Posted by Qhadow123 on 11/15/2021 11:17:00 AM (view original):
I have a D2 program. Pursuing a D2 prospect who is 'Very High' on me, is a great match in every way except 'long-term coach', listed as wanting to sign 'Early', and who has no other offers or even much interest. Have gone through 6 offer periods now with the early signing window open and he still hasn't signed. What the heck? What am I missing?
Oh, and I have 4 scholarships available. Am I forgetting a setting somewhere?
this may be wrong, but probably its right at least materially (several mechanical schemes could lead to the same outcome). the way i look at it is this - every recruit has a pre-generated signing preference AND a pre-generated signing cycle which is generated probabilistically based on the signing preference. before the signing cycle, there is 0 chance of them signing. at the signing cycle, and every cycle there after, the player will sign with 100% probability if there is any qualified signer (high or very high, with a scholarship offer and an open slot).

in short, your actions (or other folks' actions) do not impact when that player is open to signing. just hold out for that pre-generated signing cycle.
11/15/2021 1:48 PM
Posted by gillispie on 11/15/2021 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Qhadow123 on 11/15/2021 11:17:00 AM (view original):
I have a D2 program. Pursuing a D2 prospect who is 'Very High' on me, is a great match in every way except 'long-term coach', listed as wanting to sign 'Early', and who has no other offers or even much interest. Have gone through 6 offer periods now with the early signing window open and he still hasn't signed. What the heck? What am I missing?
Oh, and I have 4 scholarships available. Am I forgetting a setting somewhere?
this may be wrong, but probably its right at least materially (several mechanical schemes could lead to the same outcome). the way i look at it is this - every recruit has a pre-generated signing preference AND a pre-generated signing cycle which is generated probabilistically based on the signing preference. before the signing cycle, there is 0 chance of them signing. at the signing cycle, and every cycle there after, the player will sign with 100% probability if there is any qualified signer (high or very high, with a scholarship offer and an open slot).

in short, your actions (or other folks' actions) do not impact when that player is open to signing. just hold out for that pre-generated signing cycle.
I've never thought of it as a pre-generated and predetermined signing cycle. I guess that could defn be true. I always thought it was a dice roll each time but adjusted for prefs.

I.e. there are 10 signing cycles in session 1. A player who is early starts at 50% odds of signing right away, then 55.5ish % odds of signing 2nd chance (50% divided by 9 remaining cycles in session 1, added to the previous odds)...then 61.1ish % of signing on the 3rd chance (44.5% divided by 8 remaining cycles, added to 55.5) and so on...ultimately the player has a 100% cumulative chance of signing session 1.

Then a player with end of period 1 pref is the same way, but goes all the way from 0-100% in the 1st session instead of 50-100.

Whenever goes 0-100 more slowly over all 20 signing cycles, and late goes 0-100 in session 2.
11/27/2021 10:55 PM
Posted by pdxblazerfan on 11/27/2021 10:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gillispie on 11/15/2021 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Qhadow123 on 11/15/2021 11:17:00 AM (view original):
I have a D2 program. Pursuing a D2 prospect who is 'Very High' on me, is a great match in every way except 'long-term coach', listed as wanting to sign 'Early', and who has no other offers or even much interest. Have gone through 6 offer periods now with the early signing window open and he still hasn't signed. What the heck? What am I missing?
Oh, and I have 4 scholarships available. Am I forgetting a setting somewhere?
this may be wrong, but probably its right at least materially (several mechanical schemes could lead to the same outcome). the way i look at it is this - every recruit has a pre-generated signing preference AND a pre-generated signing cycle which is generated probabilistically based on the signing preference. before the signing cycle, there is 0 chance of them signing. at the signing cycle, and every cycle there after, the player will sign with 100% probability if there is any qualified signer (high or very high, with a scholarship offer and an open slot).

in short, your actions (or other folks' actions) do not impact when that player is open to signing. just hold out for that pre-generated signing cycle.
I've never thought of it as a pre-generated and predetermined signing cycle. I guess that could defn be true. I always thought it was a dice roll each time but adjusted for prefs.

I.e. there are 10 signing cycles in session 1. A player who is early starts at 50% odds of signing right away, then 55.5ish % odds of signing 2nd chance (50% divided by 9 remaining cycles in session 1, added to the previous odds)...then 61.1ish % of signing on the 3rd chance (44.5% divided by 8 remaining cycles, added to 55.5) and so on...ultimately the player has a 100% cumulative chance of signing session 1.

Then a player with end of period 1 pref is the same way, but goes all the way from 0-100% in the 1st session instead of 50-100.

Whenever goes 0-100 more slowly over all 20 signing cycles, and late goes 0-100 in session 2.
well, if the above numbers were correct, half of eligible early signers would sign that first cycle, and then slightly more than half remaining the following, and that definitely isn't the case (eligible in the sense that there is a team with an open scholarship at high or very high, not academically). that doesn't mean such a model is impossible though, with lower figures. also, your model agrees with mine in that being alone on a player or in a battle, or with much effort or little, has no bearing - which is the main thing i was concerned with.

the issue with this overall question is, i'm not seeing a black and white way to determine if it is something like your model or mine. its all probabilistic. one season, when i was co-coaching a team, we tracked like 100 players and their signing prefs, along with when they signed, and got kind of a breakdown of the rough signing curve. this was after i already discarded most models where things like leading on a player alone, having lots or little effort, had an impact (but i was open to being proved wrong - still am - always - but it seems less likely now). and it seemed to me from that, and just general experience, its not the way you describe. i think a lot of players when they become eligible to sign partway through their signing period, seem to sign right away - which is a big driver of why i subscribe to the pre-destined cycle model (or something mechanically similar). see whenever d1 recruits going d2 for the most relevant example, perhaps? their distribution, over a decent sample size, seems to me should definitively point away from one of our models, or both? (we'd have to both formalize what we are saying but still). but all i'm really saying in any of this is, my pattern matching brain isn't buying the sort of model you describe, because there is a model it likes better, for whatever reason!
11/28/2021 11:57 AM
Posted by pdxblazerfan on 11/27/2021 10:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gillispie on 11/15/2021 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Qhadow123 on 11/15/2021 11:17:00 AM (view original):
I have a D2 program. Pursuing a D2 prospect who is 'Very High' on me, is a great match in every way except 'long-term coach', listed as wanting to sign 'Early', and who has no other offers or even much interest. Have gone through 6 offer periods now with the early signing window open and he still hasn't signed. What the heck? What am I missing?
Oh, and I have 4 scholarships available. Am I forgetting a setting somewhere?
this may be wrong, but probably its right at least materially (several mechanical schemes could lead to the same outcome). the way i look at it is this - every recruit has a pre-generated signing preference AND a pre-generated signing cycle which is generated probabilistically based on the signing preference. before the signing cycle, there is 0 chance of them signing. at the signing cycle, and every cycle there after, the player will sign with 100% probability if there is any qualified signer (high or very high, with a scholarship offer and an open slot).

in short, your actions (or other folks' actions) do not impact when that player is open to signing. just hold out for that pre-generated signing cycle.
I've never thought of it as a pre-generated and predetermined signing cycle. I guess that could defn be true. I always thought it was a dice roll each time but adjusted for prefs.

I.e. there are 10 signing cycles in session 1. A player who is early starts at 50% odds of signing right away, then 55.5ish % odds of signing 2nd chance (50% divided by 9 remaining cycles in session 1, added to the previous odds)...then 61.1ish % of signing on the 3rd chance (44.5% divided by 8 remaining cycles, added to 55.5) and so on...ultimately the player has a 100% cumulative chance of signing session 1.

Then a player with end of period 1 pref is the same way, but goes all the way from 0-100% in the 1st session instead of 50-100.

Whenever goes 0-100 more slowly over all 20 signing cycles, and late goes 0-100 in session 2.
What would be the point of doing it like this? It seems simpler to have a recruit coded with a predetermined signing time and then from our end there is the same uncertainty, just because we do not have that information.

Agreed hard with what Gill said about, aside from needing at least one team on high/VH, recruiting effort by teams has no impact on when a player signs.
11/28/2021 12:22 PM
I've noticed over the past few recruiting periods that if a player has Early/Whenever and has a preference "wants to play" I haven't had them sign right away until I offered them guaranteed playing time. Whether or not that's sheer coincidence for me or if they hold off signing until they get that guaranteed time, I don't know.... but that's what I've been finding.
11/28/2021 2:44 PM
i haven't looked at prefs in that way... it could make sense i suppose, a guy signing with a good pref match faster. i was focused on effort & competition due to their relevance prior to 3.0, and felt no correlation, but i have not looked at prefs in that way. i wonder if perhaps prefs could have some impact?

its a more complex model - and i'm not really sure how that would fit with the pre-set signing cycle model. so i think you might have to discard that simple approach for something more complex, too - and i'm not sure what that would be? a simple model that fits well tends to be the answer, but, i really don't know...
11/28/2021 3:11 PM
I'm open to being wrong too, and agreed it would be much simpler coding for it to be predetermined...but only the first time you write the code. After that it's computers doing the work so who cares? I dont think a coin flip for whether or not a player signs this cycle is going to bog down the processing much.

This is a super interesting topic though, and I really do hope it's more complex with preference matches included because that would be awesome.
11/28/2021 3:44 PM
If I recall, seble specifically declined to answer if recruits were coded to sign on a given cycle, or if it was an independent decision every time. The big functional difference I guess is when you have a case of a whenever D1 player who has early D2 offers, and no D1 interest until very late in the first session, perhaps unlocking a scholarship offer on the last cycle of RS1. So as RS2 opens, and both schools are thinking about whether to sink a bunch of visits in this guy, it kind of matters if he’s likely going to sign right away. If, as a whenever guy, his signing period was triggered but then gets reset because no one was eligible with an offer in during the first session, then maybe he could hold out a few more cycles. But if he’s essentially an EOP1 guy now, he’s going to sign on this first RS2 cycle for sure.
11/28/2021 7:16 PM
Random comment to add to this, not necessarily related, but possible.......

The last 3 or 4 seasons I've tracked, the very first signing cycle of players in D1, it's always been a nice rounded number. And always in the same ballpark. I don't have the world names, because it's not something I've firmly focused on. It's something I've just looked at when it crosses my mind at random occurrences.

Like 25 and 30 seem to be the main numbers specifically. Like in Allen this season, when signings started, exactly 25 D1 players signed with a team. In another world it was 30. In another 35, and another 25. Very small sample size. Only 4 random seasons. But I've never thought to look each season.

My point of mentioning it, is maybe that plays into who signs and when. The overall number of recruits compared to openings (in D1 or in that world entirely)? The percentage of players available in relation to the percentage the engine wants to get signed each cycle? Also things that might be factored in. (And might not of course!)
11/28/2021 8:05 PM
Posted by shoe3 on 11/28/2021 7:16:00 PM (view original):
If I recall, seble specifically declined to answer if recruits were coded to sign on a given cycle, or if it was an independent decision every time. The big functional difference I guess is when you have a case of a whenever D1 player who has early D2 offers, and no D1 interest until very late in the first session, perhaps unlocking a scholarship offer on the last cycle of RS1. So as RS2 opens, and both schools are thinking about whether to sink a bunch of visits in this guy, it kind of matters if he’s likely going to sign right away. If, as a whenever guy, his signing period was triggered but then gets reset because no one was eligible with an offer in during the first session, then maybe he could hold out a few more cycles. But if he’s essentially an EOP1 guy now, he’s going to sign on this first RS2 cycle for sure.
if shoe or anybody has seen those old beta era threads on this subject recently (assuming that is when the conversation happened), i would love to see it / them! i remember a bunch of stuff was discussed on a bunch of subjects, but, don't remember much in the way of specifics. it would be super interesting to re-read some of that stuff in light of all we know about 3.0 recruiting now.
11/29/2021 11:00 AM
I don’t know where they are. I thought they were gone, but someone linked to them a year or two ago; I poked around but didn’t find them as interesting as I thought (it was kind of hard to search for topics, didn’t have the same advanced search tool as the regular forums, if I recall - or maybe it did, but the problem was that those beta threads were so expansive and broad, they all kind of rambled and ended up covering a bunch of things and who knows where anything is anymore? I don’t know, can’t really rely on my ADHD brain too much).
11/29/2021 1:00 PM (edited)
Posted by topdogggbm on 11/28/2021 8:06:00 PM (view original):
Random comment to add to this, not necessarily related, but possible.......

The last 3 or 4 seasons I've tracked, the very first signing cycle of players in D1, it's always been a nice rounded number. And always in the same ballpark. I don't have the world names, because it's not something I've firmly focused on. It's something I've just looked at when it crosses my mind at random occurrences.

Like 25 and 30 seem to be the main numbers specifically. Like in Allen this season, when signings started, exactly 25 D1 players signed with a team. In another world it was 30. In another 35, and another 25. Very small sample size. Only 4 random seasons. But I've never thought to look each season.

My point of mentioning it, is maybe that plays into who signs and when. The overall number of recruits compared to openings (in D1 or in that world entirely)? The percentage of players available in relation to the percentage the engine wants to get signed each cycle? Also things that might be factored in. (And might not of course!)
Quoting myself here.... but my theory was wrong regarding the whole numbers. Smith just had 23 players sign on the first cycle. BUT...... there's still something here that is telling. I just don't know what!
12/3/2021 7:55 PM

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