Posted by Jetson21 on 2/2/2022 12:00:00 AM (view original):

Posted by chargingryno on 2/1/2022 6:45:00 PM (view original):
An unfair advantage is an unfair advantage no matter how well/advanced the science is imo

Thats like saying simple assault is the same thing as aggravated asssault:
You cant call 2 things equal when they are not equal.

If the science was as advanced back then, they would have used it.

Posted by fatguyrd on 2/1/2022 8:13:00 PM (view original):
In the 70s/80s there were wide spread rumors of players using amphimines (sp?)

Who really cares when you are talking about anabolic steroids.
Amphetamines were bad and those guys with all the day - night - day schedule almost needed them
but they don't come anywhere near what kind of whole season - not some games - did for beyond, way way beyond natural abilities of timing and power and ability to stay at peak efficiency from one game to the next.

Im not going to go with false equivalency because your favorite players are ostracized and shunned.

Posted by chargingryno on 2/1/2022 6:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 2/1/2022 4:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by chargingryno on 2/1/2022 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Then you gotta take half the guys (if not more) out of the hall.

Sutton, Perry, Cobb, Aaron, mantle…not one of them didn’t do something to leverage an unfair advantage at some point in their careers.

The HoF has been a joke imo for awhile but it just gets worse each year they fail to put the greatest hitter of an era, if not the game, in.

So wrong. Prove what you say and explain how anything ever done comes anywhee close to what Bonds and Clemens and Sosa and McQuire did.

He was not the best hitter once he chested at that level with THOSE drugs.

Perry and Sutton were known to doctor the baseballs, especially later in their careers. Ty Cobb sharpened the spikes on his cleats so he’d impale infields shins. John McGraw would grab the belt buckles of runners so they couldn’t advance bases.

Baseball has always been a game of cheaters, a game about doing whatever you can to get an edge. If you’re gonna punish the guys in the 90’s/00’s then you gotta punish them all.

Actually Ty Cobb penned the commissioner of baseball to ban players spiking their cleats.

Posted by krizzeg on 2/1/2022 6:17:00 PM (view original):
What gets me about the "steroid era" is that steroids were rampant in professional sports before that era even began. Tom House has admitted to using steroids in the 60's. MLB didn't test, they banned in the early 90s but didn't start testing until 2003. They profited off of these players and then allowed them to become pariahs.

Interesting tidbid about Tom House, he came up with the Braves in 71. All of a sudden at 37yo Hammerin Hanks HR% jumped to over 8%. Previously in his career it had never been over 6.9%, He did it again in 73 at 39yo, In 73, the year Davey Johnson joined the Braves, he managed to hit 43 out of the park. His 2nd highest career total, 18.

Look at how Nolan Ryans number improved when he got to the Rangers. His pitching coach in Texas, Tom House.

Another outlier, Brady Anderson. 50 homeruns in 1996. Never hit more than 24 before or after. His manager in Baltimore, Davey Johnson. Also on that team was Rafael Palmeiro.

Not suggesting a thing. Take these facts however you want.

1996 was the rabbit ball year. Anderson didn’t gain any weight nor did he all of a sudden crush balls 440 feet, he just had an uppercut swing, and pulled a ton of balls down the RF line, and hit others that just got out while playing in the bandbox Camden Yards. He then played thru injury in 1997.

I think this thread highlights the grey area in all this. Obviously cheating is wrong, but then we get into arguments about where cheating starts, or what an acceptable level of cheating is. "Well, ya, these guys popped greenies, but they didn't shoot up roids!"

I just think it's ridiculous to guess. We know some guys, like Bonds and McGwire used, but what about Clemens? I think he did, but other than the word of his former trainer, nothing was ever proven. Then we have a guy like Ortiz, who everyone celebrates, but had a positive test in 2003. Granted, we don't know what triggered it, but still, some doubt.

Needless to say, if we're going to apply our own standards or morality to these things, then very few people would ever get in the HOF. I say put everyone in, and if need be, note the controversy somehow on their plaque.

Posted by chargingryno on 2/1/2022 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Then you gotta take half the guys (if not more) out of the hall.

Sutton, Perry, Cobb, Aaron, mantle…not one of them didn’t do something to leverage an unfair advantage at some point in their careers.

The HoF has been a joke imo for awhile but it just gets worse each year they fail to put the greatest hitter of an era, if not the game, in.

Totally agee,every era has had there problems,the numbers should put them in in hall.

Posted by chargingryno on 2/1/2022 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Then you gotta take half the guys (if not more) out of the hall.

Sutton, Perry, Cobb, Aaron, mantle…not one of them didn’t do something to leverage an unfair advantage at some point in their careers.

The HoF has been a joke imo for awhile but it just gets worse each year they fail to put the greatest hitter of an era, if not the game, in.

I agree at some level the HoF has lost some luster. That being said, there are subjective degrees of cheating or creating some unfair advantage. In the case of the steroid abusers, theirs was literally a systemic cheat code which hurt others (as Glanville points out). There will never be consensus on how the steroid era should be viewed. I'm obdurate and will side with the Glanville opinion. I can't see any new information coming out at this point which would even begin to change my opinion.

Posted by Jtpsops on 2/2/2022 3:08:00 PM (view original):
I think this thread highlights the grey area in all this. Obviously cheating is wrong, but then we get into arguments about where cheating starts, or what an acceptable level of cheating is. "Well, ya, these guys popped greenies, but they didn't shoot up roids!"

I just think it's ridiculous to guess. We know some guys, like Bonds and McGwire used, but what about Clemens? I think he did, but other than the word of his former trainer, nothing was ever proven. Then we have a guy like Ortiz, who everyone celebrates, but had a positive test in 2003. Granted, we don't know what triggered it, but still, some doubt.

Needless to say, if we're going to apply our own standards or morality to these things, then very few people would ever get in the HOF. I say put everyone in, and if need be, note the controversy somehow on their plaque.

Then there's guys like HoF'r Ivan Rodriguez, who Canseco claims he injected personally. As big of a POS as Canseco is, he's been right about a lot more than he's been wrong about steroid related things.

And then Reggie goes and changes his stance...

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/sports/mlb/2022/02/01/mlb-baseball-hall-fame-should-admit-steroid-ped-users-reggie-jackson/9295766002/

Posted by redwingscup on 2/2/2022 6:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by chargingryno on 2/1/2022 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Then you gotta take half the guys (if not more) out of the hall.

Sutton, Perry, Cobb, Aaron, mantle…not one of them didn’t do something to leverage an unfair advantage at some point in their careers.

The HoF has been a joke imo for awhile but it just gets worse each year they fail to put the greatest hitter of an era, if not the game, in.

I agree at some level the HoF has lost some luster. That being said, there are subjective degrees of cheating or creating some unfair advantage. In the case of the steroid abusers, theirs was literally a systemic cheat code which hurt others (as Glanville points out). There will never be consensus on how the steroid era should be viewed. I'm obdurate and will side with the Glanville opinion. I can't see any new information coming out at this point which would even begin to change my opinion.

there is no doubt that the clean guys were at a competitive disadvantage to the dirty guys

Dale Murphy sure petered out early and i have to guess he played clean

and the writers can be so holier than though it's irritating

but it all shakes out in the end. the veterans committee will get the true hallers in

Fred McGriff is another guy who has gotten really shortchanged. He was quietly dominant for years, and has never been remotely linked to any drug use or scandals.