Case for BCS system over Tourney Topic

tropicana
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Quote: Originally posted by newmex on 3/27/2010Put the BCS system in college basketball:  Kansas and Kentucky will meet for the National Championship.  However, they won't play for 4 weeks.  Until then, the other 62 teams will play one game each.  The games will have no effect on the NC but they will be well-compensated and we will make sure everyone has a good time.  Kansas and Kentucky would probably have been a great game, one everyone would have wanted to see.  However, we would have had to have given up seeing Butler, St. Mary's, Ohio over Georgetown, Villanova going to OT against Robert Morris, etc.  Basically everything that would have given the game meaning and character.Almost all of the most memorable sporting events ever were upsets.  Everyone loves the underdog.  Without tournaments/playoffs, we would never have had Maz' walk-off homer in 1960, The Miracle on Ice, NC State over Phi Slama Jama, Villanova over Georgetown, Namath's Guarantee, The '69 Miracle Mets.  Who knows what great moments we are missing with this BCS crap. 

Not necessarily true that everyone loves an underdog. The uninformed casual fan does. The George Mason final four year was the lowest rated final four in over a decade.
3/28/2010 1:37 AM
kmasonbx
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Quote: Originally Posted By tropicana on 3/28/2010
Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 3/27/2010
Quote: Originally posted by kmasonbx on 3/27/2010I would like to hear the argument of how a single elimination tournament proves that 1 team is better than the other. ok, are you ready for it? because one team wins and one team loses. That was really tough, don't make your questions so hard next time. Do you think Northern Iowa is better then Kansas? well they won, so yah. If you are going to ask me "Do I think UNI is more talented then Kansas", well that is a completely different question, but the one you are asking is very very simple, they each had 40 minutes to go out and win and one of them did. Case closed. Do you think St. Mary's is better than Villanova, do you think Michigan State, Butler and Tennessee are 3 of the 8 best teams in the nation?


In the post game interview, Ali Farookmanush even said that they all knew that Kansas was better than them, and that the only way they could beat them would be to shoot the three ball better than them.

I'm just saying that when one of the players on the team that won says that...well...it kind of kills your point above
Maybe we can be friends, Trop, lol.
3/28/2010 1:37 AM
tropicana
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3/28/2010 2:18 AM
colonels19
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3/28/2010 11:00 AM
dalter
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kmason, who cares if there is "expectation that the game will be good?" What matters is actually having a good game. I've been to and seen many games that were expected to be good and ended up being blowouts, and many that had low expectations and were great games. How many crappy Super Bowls have we seen? A lot. You never know.

Agreed w. colonels' statement above ("common sense says that the best team doesn't always win, thus wanting to see the "best teams" regardless of results/outcomes is ludicrous") ... there is a reason that every single sport other than college football has a tournament to decide the champion. The champ is the one that consistently proves it on the field.

I'm sorry, but your core argument is based on flawed logic.
3/28/2010 11:15 AM
schroedess26
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Kmason from what I have read about what you said as well as others you need a vocab lesson like someone else kinda tried to do.

Talented Team = Core skills like shooting, dribbling, and ATH is better
Winning Team = Team that in 40 mins / OT has more points
Losing Team = Team that in 40 mins / OT has less points
Best (Rated) Team = Ranked/Voted #1 team (just ranking nothing else)
Tourney Champ = Selected to tourney and winning every game

Here is some logic for you now:
Talent does not equal winning.
Best (Rated) Team does not equal winning.
Thus Best or Most Talented team does not always get the tourney champ

Also, you gotta remember in order to be called the best you have to win pretty much every game already and if you lose 1 game usually you drop down to 4 or 5 in the rankings anyways so if we were still in the season would Kansas get to play for the championship now even?


Perception of excellence a champion does not make.
3/28/2010 12:57 PM
jbob23
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Quote: Originally Posted By schroedess26 on 3/28/2010Kmason from what I have read about what you said as well as others you need a vocab lesson like someone else kinda tried to do.

Talented Team = Core skills like shooting, dribbling, and ATH is better
Winning Team = Team that in 40 mins / OT has more points
Losing Team = Team that in 40 mins / OT has less points
Best (Rated) Team = Ranked/Voted #1 team (just ranking nothing else)
Tourney Champ = Selected to tourney and winning every game

Here is some logic for you now:
Talent does not equal winning.
Best (Rated) Team does not equal winning.
Thus Best or Most Talented team does not always get the tourney champ

Also, you gotta remember in order to be called the best you have to win pretty much every game already and if you lose 1 game usually you drop down to 4 or 5 in the rankings anyways so if we were still in the season would Kansas get to play for the championship now even?


Perception of excellence a champion does not make
North Carolina, of this year, is a great example of this. All those McDonald's All-Americans and a terrible team. If by prestige or talent meant they were suppose to win then we could have crowned them at the beginning of the season when they were ranked a preseason #4.
3/28/2010 5:53 PM
johnfoppe
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I love getting an early jump on the BCS vs. tournament debate. One thing I will throw out there... have you noticed all the empty seats at the basketball venues this year? Part of that may be the economy, part may be location, but the crowd at many arenas was sparse. One of the afternoon games on the opening Friday had maybe 4,000 people there at tip-off.

My point is that it is tough to have fans pick up and travel, on a weeks notice, to a neutral site game. Now if you are going to have playoff games at a team's home field that could work. But it is asking alot to have fans travel 2, 3 weekends in a row to watch their team. If you can't sell out basketball arenas with 15k+ seat, how do you sell out a football stadium with 60k+ seats?

Plus 1, boys. That will be the only playoff we will see. Seed the top 4 teams . Put them in 2 bowl games. Then have the final 2 weeks later.

3/28/2010 10:08 PM
schroedess26
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Quote: Originally posted by johnfoppe on 3/28/2010I love getting an early jump on the BCS vs. tournament debate.  One thing I will throw out there... have you noticed all the empty seats at the basketball venues this year?  Part of that may be the economy, part may be location, but the crowd at many arenas was sparse.  One of the afternoon games on the opening Friday had maybe 4,000 people there at tip-off.  My point is that it is tough to have fans pick up and travel, on a weeks notice, to a neutral site game.  Now if you are going to have playoff games at a team's home field that could work.  But it is asking alot to have fans travel 2, 3 weekends in a row to watch their team.  If you can't sell out basketball arenas with 15k+ seat, how do you sell out a football stadium with 60k+ seats?  Plus 1, boys.  That will be the only playoff we will see.  Seed the top 4 teams .  Put them in 2 bowl games.  Then have the final 2 weeks later. 

Your not actually thinking this through though.

Right now we have 4 BCS games that have 8 teams. Lets say on average 80,000 per game. Thats 320,000 paying fans for all the games.

Now lets say we have an 8 team play-off where you have 4 opening games, 2 semi games, and the championship.

4 games = 50% full, 160,000 fans
2 games = 75% full, 120,000 fans
champ game = 100% full, 80,000 fans

Thats 360,000 fans on the extremely low side. Plus you have to remember instead of just 12-14 hours of game time to sell ads for the NCAA would be selling now 21-28 hours of game time ads to sell. Which in the long run makes more money than attendance to games.

Why do you think the NCAA tournament is going to expand, its not because they sell out the games, its because they sell the ad space. Also you forget that just because the stand are not full does not mean someone didn't buy the tickets to the game.

1. Their team could have been eliminated already
2. Their team could be playing in either the late or early game of the day
3. They could have bought the tickets and not shown up
4. Scalpers could have the tickets and not be able to sell them for 200% over face value
5. Its like a MLB game in Boston or Chicago or LA where people just show up late
3/29/2010 1:25 AM
kmasonbx
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Quote: Originally Posted By schroedess26 on 3/28/2010Kmason from what I have read about what you said as well as others you need a vocab lesson like someone else kinda tried to do.

Talented Team = Core skills like shooting, dribbling, and ATH is better
Winning Team = Team that in 40 mins / OT has more points
Losing Team = Team that in 40 mins / OT has less points
Best (Rated) Team = Ranked/Voted #1 team (just ranking nothing else)
Tourney Champ = Selected to tourney and winning every game

Here is some logic for you now:
Talent does not equal winning.
Best (Rated) Team does not equal winning.
Thus Best or Most Talented team does not always get the tourney champ

Also, you gotta remember in order to be called the best you have to win pretty much every game already and if you lose 1 game usually you drop down to 4 or 5 in the rankings anyways so if we were still in the season would Kansas get to play for the championship now even?


Perception of excellence a champion does not make




Honestly have no idea what you are talking about in this post, and no clue what the point is you are trying to make.
3/29/2010 9:37 AM
jslotman
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There looks like there are empty seats at some of the tournament games because with the exception of Salt Lake City, all the regionals were played in a dome. Why would you go sit in a seat literally 1/4 mile away from the basketball court when you can watch the game with some buddies on TV? The movement of the NCAA tournament to domes - the last final in a non-dome was held in 1996 - has really created some less than desirable optics and crowd noise over the last 14 years.

Anyway, totally off topic, but I find the idea that people actually prefer the BCS to the NCAA tournament somewhat amusing. Newsflash: there are 48 states out there not named Kansas or Kentucky, and outside of those two states, nobody really gives a crap about KU or UK. Hell, my local NPR station announced throughout last Friday morning that UK - the University of Kansas - beat Cornell and will be playing West Virginia in the Elite Eight.
3/29/2010 10:40 AM
jwelsh1023
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Quote: Originally Posted By kmasonbx on 3/27/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By mjp8 on 3/27/2010
Any championship not awarded through a playoff is a sham, plain and simple.

A knock on the BCS that you have glanced over in defending it is that every post season game but 1 has become useless. I'm a Pitt fan, we won the Meineke Car Care bowl and I could car care less.

March Madness gives us 3 weeks of excitement, upsets, favorites and an eventual tournament champion. The BCS's argument that the regular season would be irrelevant ignores the fact that it made the post season irrelevant.

The #1 team might not always win, but the #1 team was only called that because people voted on it, when given the chance to prove it they didn't.
You missed my point, I said I wasn't defending the BCS system as a whole, what I'm saying is the BCS system gives us a guaranteed great national championship matchup while the NCAA tourney does not.

I agree wholeheartedly about the playoff.

Only 5 have been within 10 points and only 1 has been less than touchdown...not quite great matchups.



And the Tournament crowns the team that played best against its 6 opponents, not the best team in the country.

College Football makes about 4 post season games relevent.

College basketball makes about 70 post season games relevent
3/29/2010 11:12 AM
schroedess26
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I would say that only 1 game is relevant in NCAA Football, well you could include a couple conference championships if you wanted as well.

To say that all the BCS games are a big deal is a joke. Sure its cool for the Big Ten to get to the Rose Bowl but in the larger scheme it doesn't really mean that much, its like playing in the NIT.
3/29/2010 11:55 AM
tpob18
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I really can't see any reason to even play the season. We all new KU and UK were the two best teams before the season started. Heck we could have just played the Championship in early December.

UK was not even a top 5 team this year. They were too young and that is why they are done. West Virginia is a better basketball team than UK.

KU was a great teams but in the UNI they lost because the flaws that Collins and Aldrich have showed early this year and in the past showed up again. Great teams can fight those things off and overcome them.

I heard one idiot actually call foroukmanesh's shot lucky. Any D1 player hitting a wide open three is not luck and in his case that open he would hit that shot at least 8 of 10.

If you took each conference's league champ in a play off and had each of them play a three game series you definitely would come out with the best team as champion. Would KU and UK be there? NO. Butler is the perfect example for why a tournament setting is so good. They are a top 5 team. They are a better team than UK. They deserve a shot at the national championship. In football they would be playing a meaningless game that no one cares about.

And that is why anointing a champ like the do in football is wrong. Champions should be made on the field or on the court not by pollsters who know less about the teams than we do.
3/29/2010 11:56 AM
tpob18
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Quote: Originally Posted By vandydave on 3/27/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By dcy0827 on 3/27/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 3/27/2010
The key failure in your argument is when you said this "We are guaranteed a national title between 2 teams that haven't played each other and are arguable the 2 best in the nation"

Why do you want a title between two teams that are only arguably the best two in the nation ? Why not have it between the best two that proved they belonged there by winning 2-3 games against other top competition?



I usually agree with you almost 100% of the time Mason, but I think Zhawks has a very valid point here.

To me, the BCS is more about the almighty dollar. If you're not in one of the "big boy" conferences, you'll never get the chance to play for the championship. At least in the NCAA tourney, some of the smaller schools (who may be every bit as deserving as the big names) have a chance to go out and win a title, instead of getting frozen out like they are with the BCS.
the ncaa tournament is first and foremost about the almighty dollar, to think otherwise is simply naive.

no one is frozen out of either bcs or ncaa tournament, everyone has a chance to earn their way in through at large berths.



That is not true. The bowls get to pick and they do not always take the best teams. See an undeserving KU in the Orange Bowl a couple seasons ago. Teams are definitely frozen out of the irrelevant BCS games based on their ability to travel.
3/29/2010 12:19 PM
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